Mercedes-Benz has unveiled the hybrid version of the ML SUV, dubbed the ML 450 Hybrid in New York.
The ML 450 Hybrid is powered by 3.5L Atkinson V6 mated to a two-mode hybrid system that results in a final output of 335 horsepower and 381 lf-ft of torque. The system manages to get 21 mpg city and 24 mpg on the highway and is classified as a SULEV (Super Ultra Low Emisssion Vehicle).
The two-mode hybrid system is Mercedes first application of the system that it co-developed with GM and Chrysler.
PRESS RELEASE:
Mercedes-Benz ML450 HYBRID
The perfect hybrid powertrain
-Compact 288 volt battery with high energy density
-Sophisticated control system calculates most efficient operating mode in real time - 160 times per seconds with up to 50 million computations.
-Atkinson V6 gasoline engine with 275 hp and optimized fuel economy
-Classic M-Class benefits remain intact - economy of space, high levels of active and passive safety, driving comfort and 4MATIC permanent all-wheel drive
In the search for the optimum hybrid system for the premium auto sector, one thing was absolutely clear to development engineers right from the very earliest stages of the concept phase – a Mercedes-Benz SUV with a hybrid driveline will have to possess the same brand characteristics as every other vehicle produced by the brand. Core elements such as the highest possible levels of active and passive safety, the best in driving and user comfort, uncompromising operational safety and reliability over a long period of time and high- quality workmanship with select materials must all be at the same level as a comparable, conventionally-driven series production vehicle - combined with the highest possible efficiency. At the same time, the hybrid powertrain system should emphasize the innovative strength and leading technological excellence of the company. These objectives necessitated a full vehicle development program – as would be required for an entirely new model range. In bringing it to production, engineers and technicians covered a total of 2.5 million miles - many of them in regions with extreme variations in climate conditions - in order to guarantee the operational safety of the system in everything from freezing arctic temperatures through the dry heat of the desert to the extreme humidity of the tropics. This work was complemented by extensive test cell development and detailed simulation using a "digital prototype". One important objective of the development process was the optimum matching of the various sub-systems integrated within the driveline. Thanks to this "system matching" process, the user experience of the different drive modes is seamless and intuitive.
The ML450 HYBRID has a powertrain architecture that enables both purely-electric and purely-combustion engine operation, as well as a combination of both. Its two-mode hybrid technology is based on the fundamental work carried out by the "Global Hybrid Cooperation". This industry grouping brings together the research and development efforts of Daimler AG, the BMW Group, General Motors and Chrysler.
Superior technology – two-mode hybrid is the most efficient driveline
Thanks to its two-mode hybrid technology, the ML450 HYBRID possesses considerable benefits; its performance figures are comparable to those of a classic eight-cylinder SUV with permanent all-wheel drive, while fuel consumption and emissions are up to 60 percent lower. The ML450 HYBRID, which was conceived specifically for the North American market, achieves city gas mileage of 21 mpg and highway mileage of 24 mpg. Classified as a SULEV (Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle), the SUV currently complies with the most stringent of all U.S. emissions legislation for vehicles with internal combustion engines. At the same time, the ML450 HYBRID delivers a system performance of 335 hp and an overall torque of 381 lb-ft to guarantee a refined driving experience combined with increased powertrain comfort. The powertrain is controlled fully automatically, meaning that the driver can concentrate on the traffic and enjoy the driving experience of the ML450 HYBRID without additional operational effort. The functionality of the 4MATIC all-wheel drive also remains fully intact.
At the heart of the two-mode hybrid driveline is the transmission unit with two compact electric motors, three planetary gear sets and four clutches. This configuration enables the drive to be split through one electrical and one mechanical route. Conventional one-mode hybrid systems generally have no mechanical gearing. These systems must therefore transfer the majority of their power through the electrical driveline with higher electrical output and subsequently reduced efficiency. Their most efficient operation takes place largely at lower loads and speeds. Should power transfer also be required at higher loads and speeds, then a larger electric motor would be required. This, in turn, would use more energy and take up more space, to the detriment of efficiency. In contrast, as load and speed increases, two-mode hybrid technology transfers drive in a variable fashion from the electrical line to the mechanical driveline. In so doing, the system functions significantly more effectively under all conditions ranging from stop-and-go city traffic to rapid highway driving. It also enables the use of more compact electric motors. The "two-mode" technology also derives its name from its increased efficiency in both city traffic and on the open road.
Through the activation of the four clutches, the electrical and internal combustion engine drive is split between all four wheels of the 4MATIC permanent all-wheel drive via four fixed ratios and two variable electrical ratios in accordance with driving conditions. A range of strategies – defined by traffic conditions or driver preference – deliver the best possible figures in terms of fuel economy and performance.
-In pulling away or at low speeds up to the second fixed gear, the ML450 HYBRID drives very smoothly in ECVT 1 mode (Electric Continuously Variable Transmission).
-The ECVT 2 mode takes over at higher speeds starting at the second fixed gear ratio. Depending on the optimum operating point, either a combined or constantly variable mode will be selected.
-In the first and third fixed gear ratios, both electric motors operate together either to provide additional energy for acceleration (boost) or to store the braking and drive energy (recuperation).
-In the second and fourth fixed ratio, one of the electric motors is switched off in order to increase efficiency. The other electric motor is used for boost and for recuperation.
Both compact electric motors have a high power density and are fully integrated into the transmission casing. The limited packaging space called for a different set up for each of the two motors. The first is positioned closer to the internal combustion engine, generates 83 hp and 173 lb-ft of torque and is set up specifically for performance. The motor located at the output end of the transmission generates 80 hp and 192 lb-ft of torque and is dedicated to pulling away under electric power and to provide boost.
Compact 288 volt battery with high power density
In the ML450 HYBRID, electrical energy is stored in a compact, liquid-cooled, high-voltage nickel metal hydride battery. Summary battery data:
-Battery type Liquid-cooled, high-voltage nickel metal hydride battery
-Location Below rear cargo area
-Weight (lbs) 183 Modules / cells (no.) 24 / 240
-Electrical output (kW) 45
-Capacity (kWh) 2.4 voltage (V) 288
A battery management system monitors and controls the varying charge flow during electric driving, boost or recuperation and ensures a stable charge condition. The entire high-voltage network on board the vehicle is equipped to the highest safety standards.
Sophisticated control system calculates most efficient operating mode in real time
The operation of the two electric motors and the control of the overall high-voltage network demand a sophisticated system of power electronics, which is located under the hood of the ML450 HYBRID. In order to increase its efficiency, waste heat is channeled through a separate cooling system. An integrated auxiliary power module facilitates energy exchange between the 288 volt and 12 volt vehicle networks.
A powerful computer controls the hybrid system with up to 50 million computations per second. The central electronic control unit calculates the most efficient operating mode 160 times per second, thus achieving the lowest possible fuel consumption. The control system also facilitates the control of new comfort and functionality features:
The coordinated transmission shift strategies allows for exceptionally smooth maneuvering
The "chill down" mode enables battery recovery under excessive load or high temperatures*
An adaptive driving program learns the road profile and the driving characteristics of the person at the wheel and uses this information to optimize the agility of the driving program.
"Power Launch Control" facilitates the best possible acceleration figures in boost mode*
The "Traffic Jam" feature enables pure electric driving in stop-and-go operation, even when the battery charge status is low*
* exclusive features of the ML450 HYBRID
Atkinson V6 engine with optimized fuel economy
The redesigned 3.5 liter V6 gasoline engine has been optimized in accordance with the Atkinson cycle and enables considerably improved fuel economy and emissions values at a power output of 275 hp and maximum torque of 258 lb-ft. Development engineers took advantage of some of the benefits of the Atkinson principle, whereby the intake stroke is longer than the compression stroke. To achieve this, the intake valve stays open a little longer between intake and compression, thus increasing the thermal efficiency of the engine while reducing specific fuel consumption and raw emissions. Vehicles with conventional drivelines don't employ this process, because, aside from their consumption and emissions benefits, Atkinson engines have a tendency to produce lower torque in the lower rev range, thus offering a poorer throttle response, especially at lower engine speeds. In the ML450 HYBRID, this disadvantage is more than compensated for by the use of the electric motors for normal pulling away, acceleration and boost. The M-Class enjoys the highest levels of throttle response and agility.
Compared with the conventional 3.5 liter V6 engine, the cylinder heads, pistons and camshafts have all been modified in the Atkinson version. The camshaft control is also different. The redeveloped, controlled oil pump adjusts its demand to the actual engine requirements, thus minimizing the required feed and contributing to a reduction in fuel consumption and emissions. As the tasks performed by the alternator and starter motor are integrated into the functionality of both electric motors, these components become superfluous and can thus be removed from the ancillary belt drive. It was also possible to remove the air conditioning compressor and the power steering pump from the belt drive. In the ML450 HYBRID, these are powered electrically and can be driven independent of the combustion engine.
Operating strategies of the two-mode hybrid powertrain
-The ML450 HYBRID offers the maximum additional functionality possible from a hybrid powertrain. This includes variable hybrid driving in city and highway traffic, silent electric- only pull-away and drive, power boost for lively acceleration, energy recuperation and automatic start/stop function. These functions are activated in accordance with operating status and traffic conditions:
-At a standstill, the internal combustion engine is switched off. The functionality of the air conditioning and power steering are fully maintained through the electrical operation of the air conditioning compressor and the steering pump.
-Low-speed maneuvering, e.g. during parking, is handled using electric drive only.
-When the driver activates the gas pedal while the vehicle is at a standstill, the ML 450 HYBRID pulls away in electric-only mode. In the event that the pedal is depressed quickly, the system control recognizes the desire for heavy acceleration, activates the combustion engine and supports this with added torque from the electric motor (boost effect) to noticeably increase the responsiveness of the vehicle. The transmission also has a kick-down function, if required.
-During consistent driving, the operating point of the V6 engine shifts in favor of lower specific fuel consumption in order to increase efficiency, particularly under partial load
-Recuperation - the conversion and storage of braking energy as electrical energy - begins immediately following the application of the boost function or during normal braking maneuvers. Under heavy braking, the mechanical brakes are also applied. If required, the ML450 HYBRID provides the same degree of maximum braking power as a conventionally powered M-Class, while sustaining its exceptional handling stability.
-The automatic start / stop function deactivates the V6 engine whenever it is not required, e.g. when rolling up to a red light. As soon as the driver depresses the gas pedal, the ML pulls away under electric power, before then starting the combustion engine.
-The Silent Start function enables noiseless starting of the vehicle.
Display provides information on current operating status
The ML450 HYBRID driving experience delivers an impressive level of agility and balanced powertrain characteristics under all operating conditions. A specially designed display system informs the driver of the current operating mode. On the COMAND system display, the driver can opt to see the energy flow between the high-voltage battery, combustion engine and electric motors with the associated percentage battery charge status, or a diagram indicating fuel consumption and energy recuperation. The battery charge status can also be called-up on the instrument cluster. The conventional rev counter is replaced by a gauge that shows the total current powertrain and recuperation output.
A matter of preference – Economy or Sports mode
In order to make the extraordinary agility of the ML450 HYBRID even more apparent, the model offers a Sport mode alongside its Economy mode, activated by the "E/S" switch in the center console. This operating mode offers the characteristics of a conventional automatic transmission with eight fixed ratios and extremely short shift times. The sportier engine and transmission logic, as well as the direct drive characteristics of the powertrain make throttle response even more instantaneous. The Sport program also recognizes driving style and road profile and adapts the system control accordingly.
Classic M-Class benefits remain fully intact
The models of the Mercedes-Benz M-Class are among the world's most successful premium SUVs and offer the highest possible active and passive safety, the best in driving and user comfort, uncompromising operational safety and reliability over a long period of time and high-quality workmanship with select materials. These attributes apply also to the ML450 HYBRID, which offers performance in all of these areas equal to that of the conventionally powered variants. The hybrid version fulfills the same crash test requirements and offers outstanding active safety with stability control systems such as ESP©, ABS and BAS, as well as 4MATIC all-wheel drive. The integration of the hybrid technology has been perfectly engineered, and requires no additional packaging space that would in any way compromise comfort or functionality. The space available in the passenger cabin is every bit as generous as before and the trunk capacity remains fully intact. From the outside, the ML450 HYBRID is recognizable by its modified hood, the BlueEFFICIENCY logo on the fender and by the HYBRID badge on its tailgate.
Manufacturing of the ML450 HYBRID is completely integrated into the production system at the Mercedes-Benz plant in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.
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Comments (23)
A trifecta of firsts, this is indeed a great day...
As I read the article I kept thinking the MPG values were pretty low, even for this SUV making 335HP but then I saw that they were using GM/Chrysler's two-mode hybrid system which made 2 more MPG than gas engine in the Chevy Malibu.
Two-mode hybrid = FAIL in my book.
Beyond that though, it seems like a rather linear update to the vehicle. It looks pretty much the same, to me, except for a few changes here and there, most notably, the grille. Personally, I think I'd go for the smaller one. It actually looks pretty good in person.
Posted by D! | April 9, 2009 12:25 PM
Posted on April 9, 2009 12:25
Seriously, if you can afford this, why would you worry about gas mileage in the first place?
Posted by Richard | April 9, 2009 1:06 PM
Posted on April 9, 2009 13:06
Lmao, did you say Two-Mode=fail?
First, the Malibu uses a mild hybrid, not a two-mode. Second, see below:
GMC Sierra
6.0L
14/16/19 mpg
GMC Sierra Two-Mode Hybrid
6.0L
21/21/22 mpg (31% more)
GMC Yukon
6.0L
12/14/17 mpg
GMC Yukon Two-Mode Hybrid
6.0L
21/21/22 mpg (50% more)
Saturn Vue
3.6L
17/19/24 mpg
Saturn Vue Two-Mode Hybrid
3.6L
28/29/31 mpg (47% more)
Benz ML350
3.5L
15/17/20 mpg
Benz ML450 Two-Mode Hybrid
3.5L
21/22/24 mpg (29% more)
So in the Benz, not only did it gain 29% more mpg but also 25% more horsepower and 48% more torque. So much for fail. The Yukon lost 9% of its horsepower and 2% of its torque. Sierra lost 10% of its horsepower and 2% of its torque. The Saturn Vue Hybrid actually gained 3 hp and 2 more lb-ft of torque. Now for comparison, the Highlander Hybrid gains 38%, but loses 23% of its horsepower and 15% of its torque. Ford Escape Hybrid gains 39%, but likewise losses 11% of its horsepower and 20% of its torque.
Posted by Avatar | April 9, 2009 1:51 PM
Posted on April 9, 2009 13:51
An achievement sure but if you are going for mpg's why would you use full time AWD? Sorry Avatar it's just pointless. This is an extremely over priced rav4 that's not nearly as reliable and only useful off road at the beach.
All hybrid's are a failure because of the cost premium not one can break even in 5 years without $4+ gas. So unless Obama starts kneeling for saudi kings that is not going to happen for a while.
Posted by RX-7 Guy | April 9, 2009 4:25 PM
Posted on April 9, 2009 16:25
My car get around 50,000 mile a year ( I travel a lot), so in this case, for normal model (20 mpg) I need 2,500 gallons a year compare the hybrid model's (24 mpg) 2,083 gallons a year.
Assuming gas price is fixed at $3 per gallon, the cost difference is $7,500 - $6,250 = $1,250 per year.
If price difference between normal model and hybrid model is (assume) $10,000 then it would take at least 8 years to break even.
So in my case, unless the hybrid can save at least 12 mpg compare the normal model (it doesn't matter how much percentage gain, high percentage to already low mpg is still low mpg), it would not be wise to buy the hybrid model
Posted by Goose Man | April 9, 2009 7:42 PM
Posted on April 9, 2009 19:42
Oh, I am by no means saying hybrids are worth it. I am just merely pointing out that Two-Mode isn't a failure as compared to other hybrids. Even at 4 dollars a gallon, it still takes years to recoup the costs of initial investment. And by then, as pointed out before, something better and possibly cheaper will be out and/or you have a paper weight for a battery.
Posted by Avatar | April 9, 2009 11:18 PM
Posted on April 9, 2009 23:18
Remember these are the first versions of hybrids released by these companies. They don't have to be perfect but if they can improve upon it in the 2nd and 3rd versions they have hope.
Like Richard said if you are buying a Mercedes you don't care about fuel prices you care about other things such as using the vehicle as a status symbols of wealth and maybe the environment (even though it is a SUV).
Posted by blackdawn | April 10, 2009 7:32 AM
Posted on April 10, 2009 07:32
@ Avatar
Your right, the Chevy Malibu does use a mild hybrid, which isn't really much of a hybrid at all. I got the two mixed up when I was writing since I don't really bother with them.
In the case of this vehicle the hybrid does help but , as pointed out by Goose Man, you don't really save money. People would only buy this to say that they're driving a hybrid. MB might have been better off with a diesel.
Posted by D! | April 10, 2009 9:17 AM
Posted on April 10, 2009 09:17
I agree, people only buy hybrids to say they have a hybrid. You really don't save money in the long run or are doing more harm then good in the end.
Posted by Avatar | April 10, 2009 11:02 AM
Posted on April 10, 2009 11:02
You're all missing the point on why we need hybrids. Vehicles with large displacement engines tend to pollute huge amounts of CO2 (carbon dioxide) into the atmosphere. This translates to world wide global warming, health problems, and higher fuel costs (supply and demand). Hybrids won't save our planet but at least its a small step in the right direction. Mother nature needs our help.
Posted by Slow&Furious | April 10, 2009 12:09 PM
Posted on April 10, 2009 12:09
@ Gooseman
Your numbers are all wrong. First you assume only a 20% advantage in MPG. There's no 2-mode hybrid I am aware of with such a small change. For this particular vehicle, the difference is more than 30% (15mpg vs 21mpg).
Leaving the rest of your numbers in place, that's 50k miles multiplied by $3 ($150k) divided by either 15 or 21.
$10,000 in fuel for a non-hybrid of this vehicle at 50k miles. $7,142 in fuel for a hybrid.
I can't look up the cost-difference for this vehicle where I am, but $10,000 is excessive (some may charge that premium in MSRP, but it's not realistic). Added to that, you failed to remove the $3400 tax rebate.
I'll leave the Hybrid premium at $10,000 (I've seen it as low as $500 on the Camry), and then pull our tax rebate, making it $6,600. Compare that to the $2,858 you are saving in gas and you'll find that in your (admittedly very high-driving) scenario, the car pays for itself in 3 years... and that's ignoring that you have a better car (more hp, more torque, brakes last longer)
Posted by JerryL | April 10, 2009 12:12 PM
Posted on April 10, 2009 12:12
Missed this (Goose man)
"(it doesn't matter how much percentage gain, high percentage to already low mpg is still low mpg)"
What! Percentage is the *only* comparison that matters.
If your car gets 1mpg, and improvement to 2mpg will cut your fuel costs in half. If your car gets 100mpg, an improvement to 110mpg will shave about 10% off your fuel costs.
Since you are trying to justify the purchase by costs, the only other factor is what dollar figures those improvements work out to. In your scenerio ($3 gas, 50kmiles per year), that 1mpg-2mpg saves you $25,000 per year, while that 100mpg-110mpg saves you less than $50 per year.
Posted by JerryL | April 10, 2009 12:17 PM
Posted on April 10, 2009 12:17
Oops. that should be "1mpg-2mpg saves you $75,000 per year, while that 100mpg-110mpg saves you less than $150 per year."
Posted by JerryL | April 10, 2009 12:19 PM
Posted on April 10, 2009 12:19
Slow&Furious, care to comment on how much Mother Nature likes open pit mining and battery refinement?
Too bad there isn't enough Lithium in the world either to power all the cars on the road. Just going from one finite resource to another even rarer resource. Then you have cooper too. On average, a hybrid uses something like 10-20% more then an internal combustion car. But that's okay too, because at the rate of growth and use, worse case there is only 25 years of copper left, best case 61 years. Feel free to use as much lead or nickel however, since those are plentiful. Lead and nickel refining does wonders for the environment too.
Posted by Avatar | April 10, 2009 2:14 PM
Posted on April 10, 2009 14:14
@Slow&Furious
Two words: NATURAL GAS.
Posted by 426Hemi | April 10, 2009 2:59 PM
Posted on April 10, 2009 14:59
@Slow&Furious:
Yes for the last decade we have been in global cooling cycle. Of all the CO2 in the atmosphere less than 5% has been created by man and that is a high estimate. That's per NASA by way and to the best of my knowledge not disputed. The fact is every day leading scientist are backing off this man made global warming, now over 750 reputable scientist.
The recent events that lead to $4 gas were man made not supply and demand. Once during that time did you pass a station that didn't have gas? 60 minutes had special on it, which may still be on youtube if you care to inform yourself.
Do we need alternative energy sources, absolutely. We will run out of fossil fuels within the next 100-150 years. Nuclear is not the answer as it's more costly and even more limited supply. To date there are NO viable renewable energy solutions. So it is a big deal unless we all want our children living in the stone age.
If I actually thought a meaningful amount of the profit from green tech was going for a real solution to problem at hand, energy, I would be all for it. However it's not, it's lining the pockets of hippocrates like Gore, who the likes of I despise more than the fossil fuel barron's.
Whether you agree with me or not don't be a mindless parrot.
Posted by RX-7 Guy | April 10, 2009 4:14 PM
Posted on April 10, 2009 16:14
Oh great, a SUV that get good gas mileage and costs more than my house!
Posted by Dean | April 10, 2009 6:59 PM
Posted on April 10, 2009 18:59
Oh great, an SUV that gets good gas mileage and costs more than my house!
Posted by Dean | April 10, 2009 7:00 PM
Posted on April 10, 2009 19:00
Is a hippocrate what you would ship a hippopotamus in? I always wondered how they transported such a large animal. Mindless parrots get shipped in smaller cages i'm guessing.
My joke for the day.
Q: What do you call a hybrid doing 65mph?
A: Useless.
While they do affect fuel mileage very nicely in city driving, hybrids are only a bridge (or Band-Aid) between gasoline engines and whatever comes next.
Posted by Trooper Bri | April 10, 2009 7:06 PM
Posted on April 10, 2009 19:06
Avatar:
Slow&Furious, care to comment on how much Mother Nature likes open pit mining and battery refinement?
Too bad there isn't enough Lithium in the world either to power all the cars on the road.
Well I will comment. This car doesnt have a lithium battery and Slow&Furious didnt make mention of that battery type either. What you have done is build a straw man to knock down.
As for open pit mining and refining, the question becomes: what is better the environmental problems of creating an 83 kilogram battery or the environemental problems of mining, refining and buning an extra 14,000 litres of fuel over the life of the vehicle?
I'd be betting on the battery over the 10 tons of fuel, especially when you know it's recyclable.
Posted by matt21811 | April 14, 2009 4:30 PM
Posted on April 14, 2009 16:30
matt, tisk tisk. Lithium makes a better battery then lead or nickel. More capacitance per pound, which means smaller batteries, which means either more batteries or less vehicle weight, which means better efficiency. Lead refining and handling is the worse of the bunch with lithium behind it. All three come from open pit mines.
Last I checked, oil isn't 'mined'. Oil drilling is a lot less invasive then open pit mining. Also, all those precious plastics that we use oh so much come from, you guessed it, oil. The asphalt you drive your car on needs oil to make it. Kerosene to heat homes, oil. Diesel, oil again. Then pharmaceuticals, solvents, fertilizers, and pesticides also use by products found in, you guessed it again, oil. And lastly, all those moving parts in cars, even electric ones, oil lubes them.
So, for how much we get out of product vs damage to the Earth, oil drilling is much better and safer to the environment then open pit mining. Oil refinement also doesn't cause nearly as much pollution as battery refinement either, since oil refinement is pretty much just separating the different parts of the oil to be used and adding mainly hydrogen (you know, the most common substance in the universe) to get higher grade fuels. The left overs are whats used in asphalt.
As for your recyclable battery, they have to be completely refined again, which means more pollution from refinement. Also, the acids used in them need to be handled with care and broken down again to be reused, which means more time and energy. So are they recyclable, yes. However, they just generate a bunch more pollution to be recycled. Then how much time and energy is used in trying to rip apart a car to rip out huge batteries and put new ones in? You also didn't touch on the copper crisis either.
Posted by Avatar | April 14, 2009 7:17 PM
Posted on April 14, 2009 19:17
Avatar,
I'm aware of the benefits of lithium batteries. But if Lithium batteries are so great, why doesn't this car have one? They just are not relevant to this post or anything Slow&Furious said. You introduced it, and then argued against it as if it was his position that they were somehow important. That's a Straw man.
I used the word mining as a simplification. Nothing more.
Nothing in your lengthy explanation proves or disproves that production of a 80kg battery is worse for the environment than burning 10 tons of fuel in a car. You seem to think that even when recycled, a process that eliminates the open cut mine and ore refining, the battery will still have a larger environmental impact.
I think this is highly doubtful. If you think that creation of 1kg of battery is worse for the environment than burning 125kg of fuel in a car, what would you put the environmental impact equivialency ratio at? 1000kg:1kg, 10,000kg:1kg?
As for peak copper, a 10 to 20% increase in cars isn't much, in the scheme of things. Like peak oil, I'm sure those time estimates are full foolish asumptions (like that there are no substitues) and I'm not interested in wasting my time arguing about it.
Posted by matt21811 | April 14, 2009 9:32 PM
Posted on April 14, 2009 21:32
Wow, okay, we have successfully established that you have manged to add nothing but a couple of posts about how I haven't proved batteries are more harmful then oil burning. Allow me to explain how debate works, point, counter point.
Point: "Mother nature needs our help."
Counter Point: "how much Mother Nature likes open pit mining and battery refinement?"
Point:"large displacement engines tend to pollute huge amounts" (taking into account most hybrids use smaller displacement engines)
Counter Point:"Lead and nickel refining does wonders for the environment too."
Now here is where it gets funny, everyone knows lithium batteries=better then lead/nickel. I apparently had to explain said benefits for you, and then state you are aware after the fact. Now I was unaware that Slow&Furious was talking about the ML450, since the 's' in "Hybrids" followed by another 's' in the word "vehicles" in the following sentence tends to imply more then one. I am sure there are hybrids somewhere on the planet that use lithium batteries, oh wait, there are. Who knew? So lithium, low and behold, was brought on by Slow&Furious, because what types of batteries are used for hybrids? Wait for it, nickel or lithium.
Now your counter point was something to the effect that oil is worse then batteries. I come back with all the different uses for oil that low and behold, a hybrid need and the fact that oil "mining" is less harmful then open pit mining. Here comes the kicker, about 84% of oil is used for fuel, 16% for all that other stuff. So now you want us to get oil to make hybrids which you have yet to provide anything saying that oil is indeed more harmful and 84% of that oil is going to become fuel regardless and still get burned.
Next up, I don't recall saying that after the battery is recycled, it will have larger impact. I just merely pointed out that oil refinement causes next to no damage, and while battery recycling is great, the process still causes harm. Now, as for what will have a larger impact? One could easily argue the battery, and here is why. Once the oil is drilled, refined, and then burned, that's it, no more damage. The battery, however, can repeat its refinement cycle via recycling and each time causes more pollution. So every time that battery is recycled, it just added more pollution when oil can only do its damage once. The other side would be that since batteries are recyclable and in turn reusable, their product life and value is much longer then that of oil. Again, once oil is burned, that is it. However, in the end, the 1kg battery will indeed pollute more then a 125kg of oil will. How many cycles the battery has to go through before it becomes more harmful, no one can really say. It might be less then one, it might be 100,000.
Ah yes, copper doesn't matter and we can use other substances to replace it, lmao. Well, silver is actually more conductive then copper, but silver is rarer then copper, go figure. Gold is next on the list after copper, but again, rarer then copper (that's right, all those 'gold plated cables' people waste money on are actually worse then a copper one would be). After gold comes aluminum, but that is about 58% more resistant to electricity then copper is and its down hill from there. Aluminum is fine for thin wiring and is actually quite common along with zinc, but lower gauge wiring causes it to lose a lot of energy. Hybrids need low gauge wiring because of the amp load then need to carry from battery to motor and the low voltages batteries work at. Batteries hold their charge better at lower voltages, otherwise the battery would be larger then the car. Can't rewrite physical properties of elements no matter how hard anyone tries.
Posted by Avatar | April 15, 2009 12:51 AM
Posted on April 15, 2009 00:51