Ford Team Tries to Drive 1,000 Miles in a 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid on a Single Tank of Gas

If it takes 43 hours to drive 1000 miles, that is about 23mph. May be good for publicity but really, who is going to average driving 23mph?

CS:

If it takes 43 hours to drive 1000 miles, that is about 23mph. May be good for publicity but really, who is going to average driving 23mph?

Anyone who drives in rush hour traffic, in a city of medium size or more...I get to school in the same amount of time on my bicycle or in my car (and since my car doesn't have A/C, I'm sweaty either way.)

I'm guessing the "43 hours continuously" isn't completely accurate, given they will switch drivers, etc., every 2 or 3 hours.

The drivers are taking shit beaks in between their 2-3 hour sessions. Thats why it takes 43 hours.

Im from the west coast, so I dont know where is Mt Vernon, Va. But it sounds to me that they are starting on a moutain and coasting down hill. LOL! Ford needs to fire those marketing people. Even if it was the same elevation, it would have sounded more impressive if they started from Washington DC and ended on Mt Vernon.

"Anyone who drives in rush hour traffic, in a city of medium size or more...I get to school in the same amount of time on my bicycle or in my car (and since my car doesn't have A/C, I'm sweaty either way.)"

you forgot to add stops & red lights & acceleration ....

Won't that be a feather in their cap for advertising? Doesn't matter if they average 23mph. With breaks, probably cruise 30mph. A NASCAR star and an engineer, wooo, I'm impressed.

Most folk may see 'a tank in 1000 miles' and conclude 'I need one of those.'

I postulate the Fusion in real world will get something like 35mpg.

I have a computer readout on my 300hp car that displays average MPH (and MPG).

I check (and reset) my average MPH when I fill the gas tank; RARELY does is show above 25 average MPH after around 300 miles (I typically average 20.3 mpg btw). That includes more than 3/4 the total miles running down the highway at 60-65 mph driving to work. So, to average 23 mph over 1000 miles isn't simply running the car 43 hours at 23 mph. lol.

If I feather the throttle and keep the car at 60mph (the best as indicated by the on-board computer), I can average 34 mpg over about 6 straight calm miles here. But that is short lived since I am not aware of anywhere I can drive at that slow speed for a long time unless I do circles. Once I go into town, rats... 17 mpg...

So, I can believe you can get great mileage with this car if you drive it reasonably. If it get's 1000 miles on a tank - yoo hoo for Ford. My guess is that Toyota/Honda hybrids can try this too with similar results - only difference is that they would be full of praise from this site...

didn't those driving tips are all already known fuel saving technique?

“Pulse and Glide” technique is sure a best way to achieve higher MPG but I m not sure if that's make you and your passenger feel comfortable inside the car? I hate to sit in the car where driver is doing that. It make me dizzy~~~~

By the way, I went to a hybrid gathering event in bay area and those hybrids can really achieve higher then average advertise MPG using above skill, but for me, I will just drive and forget about doing the foot skill constantly along a 100 miles highway.

It's a cool idea for a publicity stunt, and I'm a big Ford fan, but I have to admit that the type of driving these guys do is very shady.

I believe I read about how Wayne Gerdes gets his incredible mileage. This sometimes includes getting up some speed, shifting to neutral, then turning off the car. Gotta keep the engine from burning gas while idling when your foot is off the accelerator.

Some other noteable techniques. Timing traffic lights so that he can drift up to them in neutral without using his breaks. This could involve moving very slowly and irritating the heck out of the people behind him. Driving in neutral also gives up control of the vehicle.

I've actually tried shifting into neutral while going downhill (probably hurting my transmission), and I was actually able to gain a lot more speed than just leaving the car in gear and letting off the gas. Definitely not recommended.

Also, there's driving with the windows closed and the air conditioning off no matter how hot it is outside. Don't want any added wind resistance!

My personal favorite of his is getting on the freeway, getting in the slow lane within a few feet of the back of a semi, shifting into neutral, then coasting behind the truck, using the airflow around the truck to maintain speed. This is probably the most dangerous technique as well.

Oh well, it would still be cool to see this car go 1000 miles on one tank even if the drivers do use shady tactics to get it done.

fine print will read,"500 of those miles were on the bed of a tow truck."

@ upl8n8

You might have read something somewhere but either your comprehension is crap, or you bought into the typical media shock and awe tactics. You also ignored about 1/5th of the article above that discusses all the techniques that will be used for this drive.

Driving in neutral gives up control of the vehicle? What control did you actually give up, the car still turns and breaks, the number of instances where you have to stomp on the gas to gain control, are a so small as to be statistically insignificant. You might have to use up 1/10 of a second to shift before you mash the gas, Huge loss, that cell phone you were talking on while driving caused more of a loss of control.

You hurt your transmission while shifting into neutral, means you probably had no clue what you were doing, so you shouldn't comment on it as if you're an expert. While your car was in neutral, were your breaks broken, or was there a short between the seat and the break pedal?

OMG no AC, its so horrible, I feel like its the stone age.

Your personal favorite is first of all, a lie. Second, I've seen more people going fast riding someones tailpipe, than i've seen going slow. These guys don't like to go over 55-60, I don't see how you're going to catch them behind a semi when most do 75 to 80. I bet you've been within 2 car lengths of the back of a semi more times in the last year than Wayne Gerdes has.

Driving intelligently, instead of using their gas pedals like an on off switch, doesn't make them shady, it just makes them better drivers than you.

Cool, reminds me of my first Ford except the trial then was to drive 1,000 miles before bringing it back to the dealership for repairs. FORD = Found On Road Dead.

mf,

You need to do some research on true hypermiling...yeah, of course Ford is just going to mention the little things you can do to slightly improve gas mileage, but closing your windows and coasting up to red lights won't get you 57 mpg.

Hypermilers are the second most dangerous types of drivers on the road, with first place belonging to those idiot street racers going 90mph, switching multiple lanes like crazy and cutting people off.

Hypermilers run red lights and stop signs because they don't want to brake and accelerate, they draft within 1-2 feet of semis (not 2 car lengths like you seem to think), and they strive to maintain 55-60 mph at all times regardless of the speed limit (when they can't draft that is)

Secondly, do you own a vehicle with an automatic transmission? When you are coasting in neutral and shift back into drive, the transmission engages the proper gear with greater force than it normally does, which can cause excess wear on the tranny, although it is much worse in AWD vehicles than in 2WD. Go take a look at any vehicle owner's manual with an auto tranny and you will see all manufacturers recommend not doing that.

@4dm

Maybe you can't get 57mpg using the techniques above, but i'm sure plenty of other people on the planet could, especially driving a hybrid. Try not to confuse your own limitations with impossibilities.

Hypermilers dangerous according to who? Your average driver is far more dangerous than any hypermiler. Your average driver at any time can turn into your idiot racer, or a distracted driver, or a lost driver. All of which drive erratically. A real hypermiler would know where they're going, pay attention to the road, and maintain a safe speed.

Running red lights and rolling through stop signs is not a practice limited to hypermilers and also not 1 preached as the ultimate in fuel savings, by Wayne Gerdes. Again the average driver runs more lights than the average hypermiler.

Ignoring the fact that you're wrong about the drafting, your average driver rides 2 feet behind a semi or most other cars on the road before they pass, how is that different? Hypermilers maintain 55-60 on the highway. Which 90% of the time is slower than the surrounding traffic, but is above minimum speeds.

You proved my point to upl8n8. If he bothered to read the manual before doing it he would know that he shouldn't do that. If you bothered to read about hypermiling from Waynes website you would know that you should try to rev match when shifting out of neutral rather than just slamming it into D again.

So it looks like it is you that needs to do your research.

@4dm

Maybe you can't get 57mpg using the techniques above, but i'm sure plenty of other people on the planet could, especially driving a hybrid. Try not to confuse your own limitations with impossibilities.

Hypermilers dangerous according to who? Your average driver is far more dangerous than any hypermiler. Your average driver at any time can turn into your idiot racer, or a distracted driver, or a lost driver. All of which drive erratically. A real hypermiler would know where they're going, pay attention to the road, and maintain a safe speed.

Running red lights and rolling through stop signs is not a practice limited to hypermilers and also not 1 preached as the ultimate in fuel savings, by Wayne Gerdes. Again the average driver runs more lights than the average hypermiler.

Ignoring the fact that you're wrong about the drafting, your average driver rides 2 feet behind a semi or most other cars on the road before they pass, how is that different? Hypermilers maintain 55-60 on the highway. Which 90% of the time is slower than the surrounding traffic, but is above minimum speeds.

You proved my point to upl8n8. If he bothered to read the manual before doing it he would know that he shouldn't do that. If you bothered to read about hypermiling from Waynes website you would know that you should try to rev match when shifting out of neutral rather than just slamming it into D again.

So it looks like it is you that needs to do your research.

@4dm

Maybe you can't get 57mpg using the techniques above, but i'm sure plenty of other people on the planet could, especially driving a hybrid. Try not to confuse your own limitations with impossibilities.

Hypermilers dangerous according to who? Your average driver is far more dangerous than any hypermiler. Your average driver at any time can turn into your idiot racer, or a distracted driver, or a lost driver. All of which drive erratically. A real hypermiler would know where they're going, pay attention to the road, and maintain a safe speed.

Running red lights and rolling through stop signs is not a practice limited to hypermilers and also not 1 preached as the ultimate in fuel savings, by Wayne Gerdes. Again the average driver runs more lights than the average hypermiler.

Ignoring the fact that you're wrong about the drafting, your average driver rides 2 feet behind a semi or most other cars on the road before they pass, how is that different? Hypermilers maintain 55-60 on the highway. Which 90% of the time is slower than the surrounding traffic, but is above minimum speeds.

You proved my point to upl8n8. If he bothered to read the manual before doing it he would know that he shouldn't do that. If you bothered to read about hypermiling from Waynes website you would know that you should try to rev match when shifting out of neutral rather than just slamming it into D again.

So it looks like it is you that needs to do your research.

@4dm

Maybe you can't get 57mpg using the techniques above, but i'm sure plenty of other people on the planet could, especially driving a hybrid. Try not to confuse your own limitations with impossibilities.

Hypermilers dangerous according to who? Your average driver is far more dangerous than any hypermiler. Your average driver at any time can turn into your idiot racer, or a distracted driver, or a lost driver. All of which drive erratically. A real hypermiler would know where they're going, pay attention to the road, and maintain a safe speed.

Running red lights and rolling through stop signs is not a practice limited to hypermilers and also not 1 preached as the ultimate in fuel savings, by Wayne Gerdes. Again the average driver runs more lights than the average hypermiler.

Ignoring the fact that you're wrong about the drafting, your average driver rides 2 feet behind a semi or most other cars on the road before they pass, how is that different? Hypermilers maintain 55-60 on the highway. Which 90% of the time is slower than the surrounding traffic, but is above minimum speeds.

You proved my point to upl8n8. If he bothered to read the manual before doing it he would know that he shouldn't do that. If you bothered to read about hypermiling from Waynes website you would know that you should try to rev match when shifting out of neutral rather than just slamming it into D again.

So it looks like it is you that needs to do your research.

@mf,

Sure, hypermilers are so attentive that they post the same crap 4 times in a row. That's known as an on-line head-on.

@mf:

We know you're in a big hurry to bicker, but please allow a little time for your post to upload to TR. Click the mouse button once, then take a deep breath. Don't worry, it'll happen...

Anyway. I've seen videos of Wayne Gerdes and other hypermilers in action. Many of these guys take it a little too far just to save a scant amount of fuel. Some of what they preach is valuable info, while the rest can be considered unsafe driving or just plain ridiculous. Some of these people actually shut off the car to save juice. Vacuum assisted brakes don't work so good when the engine isn't running.

While i do see this as just an exercise in publicity for Ford's new hybrid and it's potential, using Mr.Gerdes doesn't gain any merit in my book. I put him in the same column with PETA whack-jobs. Why use him at all when Ford has enough of their own talent along for the ride to do the job? Toss his annoying ass out after the first break!

re: rawanduntamed..."So, to average 23 mph over 1000 miles isn't simply running the car 43 hours at 23 mph. lol. "

Yea, I do agree. It was the slow speed I was eluding to. Who is to know just how fast they will drive, nobody here right now. And maybe they will downdraft every 18wheeler they can, and coast downhill in neutral, etc, all those things. But I think slow speed will get them a chance.

I have a 430hp Dodge Ram diesel, 6spd manual, 2wd, with overhead computer. I have power increasers (won't name names) and a home made hydrogen-oxygen generator passing electricity through stainless steel plates and water and feeding the vapor into the intake.

Normal driving it gets 28mpg. Without all the additions, about 22mpg.

Alone on a smooth flat stretch, no winds, empty with the a/c off, at a steady 45mph, the overhead computer indicates 42mpg. At 55mph I see 30-32mpg. But I don't drive like that. It sure makes for conversation among the passengers, though :).

I will be interested to find out more about how this Fusion experiment goes.

@tarbaby

Oh no I posted 4 times...yet it was 4 times more informative than the drivel you posted. Whats next are you going to start doing the first post bs? On this board I can almost bet money that everyone who posts on here more than 1 time, have done atleast 1 multipost, even you, but i'm sure you'd lie about it.

@Trooper Bri:
I've seen your average driver in action, even the extremes that a few hypermilers go to is know where near as dangerous as turning around while u talk on your phone, to take care of your kid while your car is going 70mph. Or texting while driving which is on the increase everywhere.

You don't need vaccuum assist to stop your car. The breaks still work without it. There are still cars on the road today that did not come with power breaks, or power steering. Engine off coasting is still a much safer practice than riding someones tailpipe to make them go faster, which is the way a majority of those who complain the most about hypermilers drive.

I'm not sure how you can kick Wayne out when his group holds the fuel economy record for driving through the 48 contiguous states, and he's won many fuel economy challenges. Atleast he's not using PEDs.

Those race car drivers do engine off coasting during cautions so you'd have to chuck Carl out too.

@ WVO:

Your home made oxygen-hydrogen generator is doing nothing but costing you mileage. I know you'll disagree, but the laws of thermodynamics are working against you on this one. Find any high school student who is good at chemistry and physics, and they'll be able to explain why the old "use power from my alternator to make hydrogen and oxygen to use as fuel" trick won't work.

As far as putting the car in neutral when coasting, that's just dumb. Any modern EFI car uses LESS fuel while coasting IN GEAR than in neutral. It's because when the engine computer realizes the load on the engine is zero and the engine is being driven by the wheels instead of the other way around, it simply shuts off the injectors. ZERO fuel use. In neutral, the engine has to have fuel to run. This can be verified with any number of scan tools or a laptop that will read this data in real time. Let off the accelerator and coast, and injector pulse width goes to zero. And note that the article says coasting to stop lights, but it doesn't say anything about shifting to neutral.

@2flow:

Mt Vernon (George Washington's home) is only about 115' elevation, while DC ranges from 0 to 400+ elevation, so it's probably a wash.

Besides, since the two are less than 25 miles apart, you really can't make any assumptions about the 1000 mile route,

And you know it's going to be slow speed, stop and go type driving, since this is where hybrids excel. For steady state highway miles at speed, the hybrid has no advantage.

Umm, anybody else think that it'll be impossible and ridiculously uncomfortable to pile all 6 people inside the car for 1000 miles? There's no way they'll achieve any sort of decent fuel mileage with 1000+ pounds in the cabin.

The mileage-maximizing techniques that the Ford team will use and pass on to consumers include:

* Slowing down and maintaining even throttle pressure;
* Gradually accelerating and smoothly braking;
* Maintaining a safe distance between vehicles and anticipating traffic conditions;
* Coasting up to red lights and stop signs to avoid fuel waste and brake wear;
* Minimize use of heater and air conditioning to reduce the load on the engine;
* Close windows at high speeds to reduce aerodynamic drag;
* Applying the “Pulse and Glide” technique while maintaining the flow of traffic;
* Minimize excessive engine workload by using the vehicle’s kinetic forward motion to climb hills, and use downhill momentum to build speed; and
* Avoiding bumps and potholes that can reduce momentum

...And it appears they won't be making it through metro Atlanta, GA.

@mf:

No, I've never posted 4 times in a row before. No, I've never posted "First" on this forum. Do you always make unsubstantiated assumptions that others are as dumb as you? I guess you'd have nothing to say otherwise.

@mf:

Not exactly sure what your gripe is. It seems you're trying to defend Wayne Gerdes and hypermiling, when everyone else is saying that these aren't viable driving techniques for everyday drivers. You know, those who are using their cellphones, taking care of their kids, driving in traffic, driving while tired, etc.

I'll guarantee you that drafting within 2 feet of someone, in neutral, with the engine off is a helluva lot more dangerous than doing it with the engine on and in gear!

Racecar drivers drive with their engine off during a caution? How does that relate to real world driving again?

You haven't even considered the problems with using these techniques in traffic. Basically, using these techniques surmounts to being a greedy and a dangerous pest. When people don't understand what you're doing, they tend to get confused.

90% of the time 55-60 mph is below the speed limit. Aren't you making your own point for being a dangerous driver? Is it safer to have everyone on the freeway doing 80mph, or to have them ranging between 55 and 80? Speed differentials on the freeway cause accidents. If the speed limit is 70, everyone is doing 70, and you're trying to save gas doing 55-60, you're interrupting the flow of traffic and becoming an accident risk. As a hypermiler, you're basically doing your own thing as long as you get good gas mileage, regardless of what other people around you are doing.

Search Wayne Gerdes on google and click on the first article. Here's a snippet:

"At one point in our drive, Wayne approaches a truck to ride its draft. The wind whipping around the semi buffets the Insight, which weighs just 1,800 pounds. I offer Wayne some cashews, and as he takes a handful, his foot comes off the pedal slightly and the Insight drifts a few car lengths back. A black Infiniti SUV squeezes between us and the truck. Wayne rides its butt. The Infiniti moves back into the left lane and zips away. "We pressured him so we could get our target back." I offer him more cashews, but he declines. "I have to pay attention," he says. He creeps back toward the truck. We're at two car lengths.... Wayne takes a call from some friends in another car.... One car length.... I thump an imaginary brake pedal with my foot, just like my mother used to do while riding with me. Wayne, not a touchy-feely guy, puts his hand on my leg to reassure me."

That would be one car length and maybe less (as the author doesn't actually say that Wayne stopped at one).

Here's some more:

"A few minutes later, he slaps the wheel. "Damn. I forgot my ice vest." The vest, which he uses at the nuclear plant when he has to work in really hot rooms, "is kind of my secret weapon," he says. "You can drive at 95 degrees with an ice vest, and it doesn't feel like 95." Wayne expects his car will be extremely toasty during the MPG Challenge. "No electricity, no air, no fans," he says. "No nothin'.""

Remember I was talking about that lack of air conditioning! Who needs air conditioning when you can use an ice vest!

Seriously, mf, I think you're missing the point people are trying to make.

@tarbaby
Read much? Apparently not, I said more than 1 not 4. I also said you'd probably lie, so obviously I won't believe anything you say regarding the subject. Then there the comprehension problem because i've said a lot more than simply saying people are dumb. The funny thing is, that is all you have said to me... So please stop projecting.

@upl8n8

My gripe is misinformation. You have a lot.

See the problem with everytime you bring the average driver into the conversation, is that the average driver is not perfect, and hypermilers are not the only danagers to the average driver. You listed quite a few where they could easily end up flipped over on the shoulder, or in a guardrail doing any of those things. Semi's are of course a huge danger, so we should just pull them off the road, too since they can kill the average driver. You could easily write daily blog entries about the stupid crap the average driver does, and most of them are dangerous.

You keep preaching that 2 feet number, like its the gospel. Then below you say 1 car length, maybe less, but the only evidence is 1 car length. The insight is almost 13 feet long, that is more than 6 times your mantra. Not the safest distance, but not unheard of for non hypermilers, apparently including a black suv. Thus proving even if they do draft many others get that close too.

You can guarantee me all you want, that drafting with the engine off within 13 foot of a semi is more dangerous with the engine off, but logically its not. There are 2 things you would have to do to avoid an accident, steer or break, neither of which are significantly compromised with the engine off. Have you ever tried coasting with the engine off? How about breaking, and steering with it off? Your severe adverse reaction would indicate you have not. Lack of complete control of the vehicle is the assumption most have, and it couldn't be further from the truth.

Like anything else you have to know how to do it right. You slammed the car in and out of neutral, didn't do it right. As I said you didn't revmatch. You apparenlt didn't know anything before you tried it. You did it wrong and some how that is proof that these techniques are horrible, or that people can't do them, because you make half an attempt. As JB pointed out, Deceleration Fuel Cutoff in modern cars, means that many times you don't want to coast in neutral anyways. All of these things are unknown by most people posting negative comments about Wayne and all try to come off like they're experts when they don't know anything about it.

You haven't even proven how the techniques cause problems in traffic. If you bothered reading about traffic, you might have heard of traffic waves, and other traffic solution experiments. If you bothered researching any of this stuff, you would know that there is some proof that hypermiler techniques can be beneficial for traffic. But you haven't done any real research, you just make accusations and clip negative snippets out of articles.

90% of the time 55-60 is above the minimum speed limit. Of course speed limit implies a maximum, why should those who choose to speed and break the law and go 80 have more of a right to drive how they want, than those who chose to maintain a speed that is legally within their right to do. Speeds that the various state transportation agencies have determined is safe to travel given the max limit set on those roads. A hypermiler doing 55-60 doing their own thing is no different than anyone other drivers attitude on the road. Almost all of them are out there for themselves and all other cars are obstacles to be conquered.

So he has a special cooling suit, the guy is getting ready for a competition, I doubt he uses it every day, but even if he does, so what, now not using AC is dangerous too? The guy lives in IL, it doesn't even really get that warm up there. I'm sure there are more people on the road with broken AC, than there are hypermilers on the road. So maybe we should start complaining about people not using AC.

The problem with making a point to someone, is that you have to actually provide information to make your point with. Having said that I will have to partially concede the drafting thing, however I will say a few things. First it wasn't the first thing that came up, far from it. I will also say that even Wayne does not publicly support drafting anymore, now if he still drafts or not, I really don't know. 2007 was when hypermiling was starting to gain attention, so he might have changed somethings since then to conform better with the safety of the driving public. There were several parts that you skimmed over in the article, that listed the things he does to try to stay out of peoples way, there are also many more articles that list positives to hypermiling. I'm assuming you would just like to ignore those because of some type of grudge.

So what point are you trying to make, cause my point is don't knock it til you've made a real attempt at it, and don't pass off false information as fact. Yours seems to be hypermilers will kill us all, so show me how dangerous they are, cause I haven't seen the accident reports on the web.

As far as drafting goes, if you've never done it, it's scary. I drafted a semi at interstate speeds years ago in my DSM. I don't know how close I was, but it's obvious when you're close enough, because the wind noise dies way down, since you're basically in a pocket of zero turbulence. But you still have to maintain your speed, so I don't know that you'd just be able to shut the engine off. The aerodynamic drag is almost 100% gone, and I did get some insane mileage.

I remember not really having to steer the car at all. On any curves, as you drift out, moving into the higher pressure air literally forces you back in place, and you'll stay behind the truck.

But it's stupid. If the truck driver would have touched his brakes, I would have slammed into him, no way around it. He's in a semi, and I was in a car that could stop on a dime, but you just wouldn't have time to react.

If you want to try it, knock yourself, out, but be aware of the consequences. As you approach the truck, you get caught in the aerodynamic wake of the trailer, and you'll get tossed around like a rag doll. Then you push through that into the pocket of low pressure created by the void the trailer leaves. But you have to be really close.....a carlength maybe. Too damn close at 70 mph not to pucker you up pretty good.

@mf:

You stated "don't pass off false information as fact".

Can you substantiate your own statements with fact?

"Your average driver is far more dangerous than any hypermiler."
"The average driver runs more lights than the average hypermiler."

Just trying to determine if you're following your own advice or if you're pulling statements out of your ass. Let's see the proof.

@BigD

Well why don't you prove hypermilers are dangerous and run tons of redlights without pulling something out of your ass.

The problem is, you've never done any of this, so you really don't know. Your lack of knowledge means you are not qualified to tell me that i'm pulling anything out of my ass. Find someone who's actually done more than halfassed trying the techniques.

Its all 100% common sense if you know what you're talking about, which as usual most on here do not.

If your entire mission is to maintain space between you and another car, then you have to pay 100% attention to whats going on around you. States wouldn't bother putting up signs about maintaining distance if it wasn't a problem with the average driver. So you have 2 recommended driving techniques for safe driving, maintain space, and pay attention. You go slow, so thats a third technique because slower speed gives you more time to react. You maintain your car, because bad maintenance decreases fuel economy, again another thing that is recommended. Hypermilers keep air in their tires, yet another recommended saftey thing. Your average driver doesn't check this. That fact has been all over the news, and it was a big enough deal that even obama said people should put air in their tires. The list goes on and on.

The redlight thing is simple.

Albany, Ore., population 48,000, issued 1,119 traffic camera tickets for $77,200 in 2008. By comparison, in 2006 only 4,000 tickets were issued for all traffic infractions.

In St. Peters, Mo., a city of 55,000, red-light cameras resulted in 3,203 tickets issued from January 2007 to September 2008, and drew a total of $235,973. The city issued 14,836 traffic tickets in fiscal year 2006, but that jumped to 21,745 in 2008, the first full fiscal year with the cameras.

Do a search for redflex gross profits. 63.3 million in the US for 2008. The number 1 redlight camera company in the US.

All of these tickets, and supposedly they're caused by hypermilers. Wayne's website just got its 10,000 member. So 10000 guys actively hypermiling which is most likely not the case, people come and go from things all the time, but we can still use that number. Then of course you have to assume that those 10000 are not adverse to running a redlight, also not likely at all.

1 redlight camera company, redflex, made 63.3 million last year. divided 63.3 million by 10000 is 6330 dollars a piece. So you really believe people willing to go to great lengths to save money on gas, are willing to spend all of those savings, 6330 a piece for redlight tickets. In addition to that, they use a bit more time to get to their destination. Where would the payout be? Even if it was 51% thats still 3228.3 a piece. That is just 1 camera company.

Common sense would tell you that its more likely many times more drivers than 10,000. Meaning that it is probable that your average driver is running that redlight, rather than your average hypermiler.

So like I said, your limited knowledge on the subject doesn't qualify you to judge whether or not i'm pulling things out of my ass. It is far more likely that the rest of the people on this site are doing that. As i've pointed out several instances where they're incorrect about things, and now i've pointed out that your assumptions are also incorrect.

We both know you haven't supported your statements with facts.

"Your average driver is far more dangerous than any hypermiler."
"The average driver runs more lights than the average hypermiler."

Again, where is your data measuring the danger level of an average driver versus that of a hypermiler?
Where is your data measuring the number of red lights run by the average driver versus the average hypermiler?

Don't try to confuse the issue by posting total number of incidents. We all know there are more normal drivers out there than hypermilers. Your statements referred to a comparison between an AVERAGE driver and an AVERAGE hypermiler.

Your very lengthy response did not provide the answers. Want to try again?

mf is just arguing for the sake of arguing. Maybe a hypermiler himself trying to advocate the practice.

By the way, 2 feet is called an exaggeration. However, it's not far off when comparing where a tailgater usually sits behind you. Many states have a two second rule, whereas you must be two seconds behind the car in front of you. At freeway speeds, that's 6 car lengths. 1 car length (as the article stated Wayne Gerdes was at), is .33 seconds. This would be considered tailgating and probably wreckless driving.... either way, it's a ticketable offense.

.33 seconds isn't much reaction time. What if that rig slams on his breaks? mf, you can say what you will about drafting, but I don't know how you can even attempt to argue that this is a safe driving practice. Why you brought up the black SUV is beyond me. I don't think that guy was being safe or driving legally either. In this article, the author says he gives Wayne some pistacchios, and that noticeably screwed up the guy's tailgating flow.

You're right though, I have been close behind a semi before. Know what I noticed? I couldn't see anything in front of me. If there was something up ahead that I need to notice, I wouldn't be able to since I can't see past the truck, and when the semi in front of me reacts, that gives me only .33 seconds to react.

I started off saying that these aren't real world driving practices. This is why I brought up the ice vest. Not because there was a safety hazzard. Most people don't go out of their way to be uncomfortable in order to save some fuel. The extra cost of fuel is worth it to enjoy the cooler temperature in the car. Can you argue that this isn't the case?

@BigD

We both know you haven't attempted to support your assumptions with anything.

I've atleast made valid points, all you've done is say where are the facts, which you know do not exist for either side. So all we have left is common sense and logic arguments something you are apparently ill-equipped to participate in.

If you can't understand the logical conclusion of the hypermile group does most of the listed safe practices, and the average group does not, then you've got a serious problem. One that will never be solved by posting ignorant babble on the torquereport.

I posted some data proving that there are many more drivers running redlights than there are hypermilers. Again you seem to have trouble extrapolating from that the fact that the driver your see running the red light will most likely, not be a hypermiler. The percentage of 1 group vs another is moot. When you talk about safety you are more likely to see a non hypermiler do it, simply because the sheer number of average drivers that run red lights. As you admitted. So complaining about a group who you assume participate in a dangerous practice, without your own proof that they do, when there are more average drivers doing the thing you feel is dangerous, is just illogical.

Hypermilers do not advocate running redlights. You've got your self stuck in a flawed logic assumption. A redlight runner is a hypermiler, therefore all hypermilers run redlights. Its a flawed argument, one that you're trying to support by claiming that I don't have data. So my not having data, to refute what is ultimately a flawed argument to begin with, some how supports the flawed argument. Sounds like the no data argument is even more flawed than the argument it is trying to support.

@upl8n8

I'm not arguing just to argue, I'm refuting your FUD. I'm not surprised you miss valid points, and put things into my conversations that I never said.

You found 1 article talking about how 1 hypermiler drafted a semi. You extrapolate that to mean hypermilers are dangerous and that no one should do it.

Thats like saying because Barry Bonds used steroids that all baseball players that ever lived have used steroids, so no one should play baseball because they will lose their sack and have roid rage.

The argument is either an attempt at FUD or shows a lack of knowledge. The more I dig into your response the more I start to wonder about your comprehension.

The black SUV where does that come from, how about the message you posted, where a black suv gets between Wayne and the truck. The whole point is, you can't base an argument against a particular group upon a practice that is not limited to that group and is not advocated by that group.

The real problem is you seem to assume that hypermiling = drafting. As I pointed out, it is not a practice that Wayne advocates you do. Maybe he did at 1 time, but he doesn't advocate doing it now. You don't need to draft to hypermile, and they won't have to draft 1 vehicle to get 1000 miles out of 1 tank in that ford.

How aren't these real world practices. So what should be real world practices then if those aren't?
* Drive over the speed limit making sure to speed up even more down hill.
* floor the gas pedal when accelerating and stomp on the breaks to stop
* Ride everyones ass, and watch your nav screen instead of the window screen.
* Drive as close as possible to the stop sign and redlights before you begin breaking
* Run the airconditioner while your windows are open to help combat global warming.
* Leave your windows open at high speed, to give your hair that nice wind blown look.
* Turn your stereo up so you can't hear other drivers honking their horns around you.
* Floor your gas while going up hill, and ride your breaks down hill so as to use as much gas as possible.
* Drive through every bump and pot hole to test your suspension to the fullest.

Some people don't mind the heat while they drive others do. Again, the requirement for AC doesn't mean that the rest of the techniques can't be done. No AC is not the bulk of the savings, not even close. It is just 1 more thing on a long list of things you can do, to save fuel while you drive. Most of the primary ones where the bulk of the savings come from, also make you a safer driver. Take them or leave them, but don't make baseless claims about their use cases, when you don't know anything about it.

By mf's questionable logic:

Your average black car driver runs more red lights than your average pink car driver because there are more people driving black cars and the number of people running red lights is much higher than the number of pink cars on the road.

Yeah, didn't make any sense to me either.

The bottom line is this:

Trying to justify the poor driving practices of certain extreme hypermilers by citing examples of other non-associated poor driving practices is the same arguement i expect every parent deals with when their kid gets caught doing something they know is wrong. No excuses, no comparisons. It's wrong. Pure fact there.

That's why i don't care for Wayne Gerdes. He's teaching dangerous driving practices to people who might feel inclined to try things above their capabilities behind the wheel.

In the Fusion Hybrid, Wayne has been replaced by a nifty little display that grows or sheds leaves. No need for push starting the car or telling passengers to "hold on!" because he doesn't want to use the BRAKES (not breaks). I've seen enough of Wayne on CNN and other clips, and don't see where Ford will benefit from his "experience" in the market this car is intended for.

@mf

Dude, you're typing a lot of words, but you aren't saying anything. Really. Your arguments about the number of people running red lights vs. the number of hypermilers mean absolutely zip. You're spouting meaningless statistics.

Give up. Drafting semis is dangerous. Taking turns at excessive speeds to preserve momentum is dangerous. I have seen some of these techniques in action, and while those drivers may be paying closer attention, their driving habits still leave a lot to be desired.

I love all the FORD hate keep it coming, just means your paying attention to progress and not the same old GM crap. However, the Volt is a very interesting car, hopefully it makes it to the streets.

@mf:

With regards to the black SUV... it's something you replied about in a previous post directed at me. Search for "black" and you'll find it. kthx.

I have to agree with J B, you're typing a lot of words, but you're not really saying anything. What FUD am I speaking of that you've refuted? Be specific. Don't just go on a tirade about nothing.

You seem to think I advocate bad habits such as speeding. Although, if you weren't jumping to so many conclusions, you'd re-read my post and see that I was comparing going the speed limit (70 in Michigan) to someone going 15 under.

I've made mention of some driving habits of hypermilers that are dangerous. I didn't say driving smart and conserving gas wasnt good. Where did I mention slamming on your gas? I've been critical of tailgating this entire time, so I don't know why you came to the conclusion that I was advocating it in any way.

Well... I could keep breaking down your points, but it's starting to get boring making points that you completely ignore, just to see you ranting on about the most mynute detail of my post.

The only things mf proved to me is that he isn't very attentive (as witnessed by his quadruple post) and he has a lot of rage (as witnessed by his personal attacks). IMHO, those two characteristics make for a very poor driver.

@PandB

I said it doesn't matter because the number of hypermilers are an insignificant number. Sorry that it is above your comprehension level. i'll try to dumb it down to colors for you next time.

Everyone's driving habits leave something to be desired.

@Trooper Bri

I disputed all of your vacuum assist BS, and all you've got is more FUD, figures.

Wayne doesn't teach dangerous practices. He teaches much safer practices than what the average driver uses on a daily basis. Try learning a thing or 2 about what you're talking about instead of posting FUD.

So its great for professional race car drivers to drive production cars to advertise how fast they will go, when no one should ever go that fast on the street. But the expert on getting high gas mileage in a car should not be used to help advertise how far those cars can go when it comes to fuel economy.

@J B

My statistics mean more than zip, sorry you can't understand it I will dumb it down to colors for you too next time. They certainly mean a lot more to the discussion than you telling me they mean nothing.

I never said drafting wasn't dangerous. All I said was there are many practices done by many that are as dangerous or more dangerous, and that it is not a recommended by hypermilers. Guess that is too complicated for you so i'll explain it in really simple terms.

You probably do worse things when you drive, and they don't draft anymore.

@upl8n8
Broken down what points, you broke down nothing. In fact i'm not even sure you could read all the words, after seeing your responses. I know there was a lot of words and it was probably difficult for you.
Here's the fud.
"You haven't even considered the problems with using these techniques in traffic. Basically, using these techniques surmounts to being a greedy and a dangerous pest."
"I've actually tried shifting into neutral while going downhill (probably hurting my transmission), and I was actually able to gain a lot more speed than just leaving the car in gear and letting off the gas. Definitely not recommended."
"Some other noteable techniques. Timing traffic lights so that he can drift up to them in neutral without using his breaks. This could involve moving very slowly and irritating the heck out of the people behind him. Driving in neutral also gives up control of the vehicle."

As I said and again you will probably miss it, Most of the recommended practices are all that hypermilers do. Your average drivers doesn't do any of them, and they don't pay attention to the no distraction driving either. So saying that hypermiling is bad simply based on 1 article about 1 person who does it, is FUD. BTW 15 mph under 70 is 55 which is the legal lower limit, obviously the state of Michigan feels that a 15 mph speed differential is safe. I know subtraction is so hard.

@tarbaby

The only thing you have proven is that you're a troll. Congrats on your accomplishment.

I get with my Opel Astra 1.3 CDTI about 4liters / 100km when cruising with 90-100km/h, that's ~1300km with a 52liters tank.

In order for this Fusion to get 1000miles with 57mpg (w/o the electric engine to even things) it means the tank has 65-66liters.

65-66/4 > 16 * 100km

So give me a tank of 65-66liters and I can get the same mileage.

Good luck getting 2,325km out of your 66 liter tank. 2.9l/100km. That would be impressive if you could do it.

I'm an idiot and have no idea what I'm talking about. I just cut & paste stuff from the internet so people will think I have something valuable to say. And no, I'm not able to substantiate any of my assertions with real facts. Pity me.

Results: Over 1400 miles on a single tank, which averaged 81.5 mpg. A good ol' American Union Made Ford car was the first to pull this off. Get over the fact that it was American - again - to set the standard for others to achieve (and best) . lol.

But really, does this prove anything besides bragging rights?

I'm all so a troll. But if I start calling other people trolls, that'll make ME less of a troll than I already am... right?

all so <> also