If GM Survives Should Saturn Simply Disappear?

The problem with GM is their stubborn arrogance to delete Buick, Pontiac and GMC.

GM can survive with Chevy as their entry level model, Saturn as an European branch (import) and Cadilliac as their premium model.

If they must keep GMC then they need to combine the Chevy trucks and Hummer brands into a GMC Trucks only division.

Remove all repeat platforms that only change the grill or logo...

Alright, here's what GM needs.

Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick, and Saturn (despite sales at this point...) should STAY with the GM brand. Saturn is in a pretty good spot for the younger crowds, college graduate type. Chevrolet is in the middle class- upper middle class family range , and Buick and Cadillac are more upscaled GM models.

What needs to GO!
HUMMER is no longer profitable, and should be sold to either another company, or make a deal with the U.S. Government to make HUMVEE vehicles only, which would keep HUMMER employees on the assembly lines.

SAAB should be bought out by some other company, and bring back the SAAB heritage back into the brand. It has been overlooked as "just another GM line".

PONTIAC and GMC are basically identical vehicles to the other lines (aka, GMC Acadia and Chevrolet Traverse) and should be eliminated completely. A suggestion would be to take the G8 and make it the Chevrolet Impala, and the Pontiac Solstice as a Chevrolet of some sort.

I feel that this would be an effective way to keep as many jobs as possible and still making great quality American vehicles.

I agree.

The G8 needs to become the Impala, and axe Pointiac. Who cares about the Solstice because we have the Sky which is better. The G5/G6 are replicates of the Cobalt/Aura and the Torrent of the Equinox so Pontiac definitely must go.

As should GMC. Every model is an exact replicate of a Chevy, so why bother?

Wow you guys are retarded they need to sell Buick, GM Daewoo, Holden, Hummer, Opel, Pontiac, Saab, Saturn, Vauxhall, and Wuling. They should keep either GMC or Hummer i would prefer if they kept Hummer they are more truck like and no matter how you look at it people will still need to work. And they need to keep Chevrolet as the entry level brand and try to establish them in Europe. They need Cadillac as a luxury brand. And sell all their stake in Suzuki which i know they were looking at doing. Chevrolet should solely be responsible for developing car platforms and mini-van and crossover platforms. Then just re badge them for Cadillac with higher quality materials of course. And GMC(Hummer) should solely be responsible for developing truck platforms that's it!! Again i prefer they keep Hummer over GMC. Hummer's have more of a rugged manly truck feel which should be what you feel when you see and get into a truck. Hell at that point GM should be doing well enough where they can re badge a Hummer truck to a Cadillac again with the same platform but with a more luxurious feel. But the rest need to die or be sold off!!!

Well, Hummer might seem manly and all but both Hummer and GMC need to go. Especially Hummer, it is a new Brand with little to no loyalty. All they need is Chevy for trucks and mainstream cars and Caddy for the luxury. If it works for Toyota, Honda, Nissan to have just two car lines, it should work for GM, Ford, and Chrysler. ( Mercury, Dodge, bye bye ) Really, Jeep should be sold off and Chrysler should be shuddered. GM could be strong with just two brands to focus on, I wish they could just do it but I guess the closing of the loser brands would just cost too much...... sad days in America, these were all once proud brands.....

Do what they must, but I don't want my tax dollars bailing their butts out of years of poor decision making. I approve of Obama using my tax dollars to fix and expand infrastructure, improve medical coverage for Americans, better our education system, and increase research and development for alternate forms of energy. But I'll be damned if the Government wastes any more of our money on failing corporations. Fifteen billion dollars is a complete joke. Everyone should realize that if they get this money, these idiots will be knocking on Congress' door in 3 months for another handout, er 'loan'.

Funny, people say ax Pontiac and GMC, but they still don't get that the number two and three in terms of sales is Pontiac and GMC. By that logic, Mazda, Audi, BMW, Mitsubishi, Subaru, Volkswagen, Volvo, Infiniti, and Acura should be closed in America.

Acura, Audi, Infiniti, Mitsubishi, Subaru, and Volvo sell half as many vehicles as GMC does, and GMC sells all body of frame trucks and a crossover. Saturn also sells less then half the vehicles of GMC. Companies with full line ups don't sell like GMC does, so why does it make sense to get rid of a brand that sells like that when it is a re-badge and has little to no advertising?

Hummer is dead to me. It died the year they killed the H1.

Well, this is a very stupid question.

Opel is relatively sound (at least they havent been begging for money nor arent they smuggling drugs).
Saturn is a badge of Opel.
If GM colapses, it will not hurt Opel too bad. Its then upto Opel if they can make the business case for saturn states-side.

Funny Avatar, it is not about numbers, but about profit. I could have been acerbic about your ignorance.....because your post was full of it...... GMC has no advertising....haha.... the allocation game. Please americans, stop book-keeping. start making good product.

GM must split into:
1. Product creation company:
Opel based for everything except largest platform and trucks.
Two brands in cars: Chevy, Caddy.
One brand in trucks: Chevy.
rest: get rid-off.
2. Production company:
Let it go broke over pensions etc the rebuild with gvt help.
Close down product capacity
Start doing contract manufacturing (for other brands)
No further excaping to China: it must be build here.

I agree the most with Andrew so far:

I'm 50/50 on the GMC/Chevy truck thing. Frankly I think GMC should become a sub-brand of Chevy, so essentially all trucks would be GMC (but perhaps with a bowtie) (hell, it's not like it's not all made in the same plant anyway).

Pontiac, eh. I think it should go straight performance (or combine it with Holden and take them both in that direction). Something that makes "fun" cars.

Caddy, good. Buick, really? Good grief in 20 years all the people that still buy Buick's will be dead. They can just as easily buy a caddy.

Saturn I'm lost on. It's grown to far to just be let go, but probably can't stand as a separate company. If anything I'd look into spinning it off as an entirely separate company (with some percentage still owned by GM).

Saab, whatever. Sell it to someone in Europe who can do something useful with it.

OR use the damn Saab 2.6L V6 Turbo that makes 291hp and make an Impala SS with it... Or a Holden platform works as well. Or a Malibu SS would kick ass to.

GM needs to examine what Saturn is supposed to stand for now. When Saturn originally emerged, it's purpose was to be an import-fighter, and a division more able to employ creative manufacturing methods and materials. GM wasn't going to allow it to be saddled with the overwrought bureaucracy that had crippled innovation in the other divisions. Fast-forward 20 years and what has it become? A division of re-badged Opels that are one platform behind what's being sold in Europe. Oh, and by the way, you're not allowed to haggle over the showroom price.

Since the innovation is gone, I see no need for both Saturn and Chevy...they are both capable of reaching the same audience, or not reaching the same audience as the case may be.

Why does GM needs all those brands anyhow, why not just sell off all of them and keep only Chevy and Cadillac that's it. You don't need Buick, Saturn and Pontiac all these brands can go under the Chevy brand name.

Since Saturn is really the only branch in the GM lineup that offers a sensible product line, it would be just fitting to get rid of that and focus on traditional gasoline guzzlers like Buick and Pontiac. It's GM tradition if you will!

I find the question a bit odd, but it's synonymous with the American market. Gas prices are down and we all quickly forget the need for economic models.

They need to stop making crap. That's the problem. They make crap.

Funny is your comment too lowest iq. What made the big 3 all that money during the nineties, so much so that the imports started making them too little to late? Oh, that's right, trucks and SUVs.

If you don't think selling trucks and SUVs that cost as much or more then the most expensive Acura for example doesn't make money? The RL uses its own chassis I believe shared only by its sister, the Legend, and a GMC Yukon Denali is a base Yukon with some head lights, a grill, and all the options, cost pretty much the same. Who makes more money off of selling what? Hmmmm, own chassis and development vs upgraded version of the base.

As for Pontiac, how much do you think it really costs to make a re-badge of a Chevy? Oh that's right, next to nothing again. Built on the same assembly lines, helping to run factories at maximum capacity which is much more efficient for GM since they have to pay people who don't work 80% of what they make an hour when they scale back production, cut shifts, and/or shut down factories. Make cars to sell or pay people to do nothing, choices choices.

Geez. Just one look at all the GM companies mentioned in this list should be an indication of at least one thing wrong with GM. With all those brands it's no wonder the entire mass has no direction, and that all are mired in bureaucracy.

The whole thing needs a re-do. It's just a mess.

Combine Chevy and Saturn for the younger crowd, Buick for the middle age and lower income elderly that like these floaty cars and drive 45 mph in the left lane, and Cadillac for the wealthy elderly and wealthy youth.

Yes Saturn really just needs to die! Look at GM and the auto industry as a whole. There is no need for Saturn.

With Pontiac becoming a "niche" brand and Opel's switching from Saturn to Buick... Saturn is worthless rebadged vehicles that take up funds that can be spent on GM's "core" brands.

Hmm. Just about the time GM get's Saturn fine tuned and make (import) some pretty good cars lately, they talk about dropping them.

Makes total sense to me, considering their CEO. Almost like he doesn't want GM to be profitable so the BOD keeps him as CEO to 'save' the company.

Time to give the GM CEO the boot, and hire me :) to do a better job (can't screw GM up any more than he did! lol)

Saturn has a hip-and-happening lineup. However, aside from the latest commercial (where the dude thinks he entered the wrong car dealership and not a Saturn one), when was the last time you saw advertising for this brand?

In the meantime, they pump ads for the other brands. Buick recently ended their sponsorship with Tiger Woods, which will presumably save a pretty penny.

I'm reading through the comments and I think a few of you are a little confused about the Hummer brand. GM only purchased the Hummer brand (Marketing rights). AM General (not owned or affiliated with General Motors) makes the Humvee military vehicle and the H1. I'm not sure if GM ever sold the H1 under the Hummer brand. But since GM doesn't make the H1, they become just another middleman so I can see why they don't sell the H1. The H2 is built off a GM Truck platform and has nothing to do with AM General.

The success of brands like Honda and Toyota come from several factors. Quality and reliability without the added price tag is one. The other is low overhead stemming from not owning 20 different brands like GM. Honda has the FIT, Civic, Accord. You simply pick one in your price range and know your getting the best. Honda also doesn't change it's name every few years like GM. GM dropped the Corsica/Beretta, Cavalier, Sunfire. They have such tarnished reputations they have to drop the names to spice up the lineup. Honda has Civic, makes sure its perfect, and sticks with it for many years with low overhead. All the while perfecting the next generation Civic. This equates to high quality designs, little recalls, better reliability, etc...

Every successful entrepreneur will tell you you need to take risks. This is what GM needs to do. They need to scrap Buick, Pontiac, Saturn, Isuzu, GMC, Chevrolet. Make 1 lineup called GM. The GM Sunfire. Not have 3 such as the Chevy Cobalt, Pontiac Sunfire, and the Saturn Ion or whatever their equivalent is. It's too much overhead.

Next GM needs to take advantage of these savings in overhead by upping the quality of their vehichles but maintaining their prices on par with the likes of Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, etc... They need to start using more stainless steel tubing and clamps for their hoses, up the quality and longevity of their parts and fluids. Do stuff like use Amsoil fluids and advertise it. Every GM I've owned had clamps rust off which results in hoses letting go and loosing all my fluids like transmission and coolant. I don't have this problem with Honda. Basically just come up with a simple high quality single lineup of cars everyone will love. Give Honda a run for their money. And then make a European style luxary car to compete with Mercedes, Acura, Lexus, BMW, etc... None of this Cadillac crap that resembles a big boat.

Third they need to be open about their mistakes. Advertise that in the past GM have made many marketing errors. It's time for change. It's time to blow the top off the automotive world. Chev, Pontiac, Cadillac, Saturn as we new it is no more. It's time for the future of GM. They need to produce lots of flair, cross their fingers, and hope for the best. They should perfect the GM (not Chevrolet) Volt and get it to market ASAP. GM is a name everyone knows and they should ride with it.

Closing all their Saturn and Pontiac dealerships is not something they want to do but it is necessary. My city has 2 Chev, 1 Pontiac, and 1 Saturn dealership. There is 1 Honda dealership that outsells all 4 of the others combined. This is sad and the reason that $20 billion of tax payers money is being given to GM and Chrysler.

In the end I want to see GM create a Japanese quality car with European styling, but have it a North American car. I think it would work. And I think it would become a big seller in Europe as well. They need to get a small ricer like the Civic or Mazda 3 and offer a sporty hatchback version. Not something plain like the Honda Fit or Toyota Yaris. They need something sporty more like the Subaru WRX. Just a beautiful lineup weve never seen from any manufacturer before and make it with Japanesse Quality using the savings from all the overhead they should trash.

Other ideas include offering standard in dash Sirius, GPS, and handsfree Bluetooth Cell Phone across the entire line. This stuff isn't that pricey. They jsut need to use aftermarket stereos form companies like Panasonic, Sony, or Pioneer, etc... using standard DIN slots. That way modders wouldn't need dash brackets and install kits. People would rejoice GM for making something fresh and new without all the BS.

None of this you should use GM brand Dexon coolant available form your GM dealer for $50 a quart. They should openly use something like Amsoil synthetic lubricants and advertise this as the best thing going. They could have a contracted agreement with Amsoil to provide all the lubricants to GM and dealers, also a company like Pioneer could produce the stereo/GPS/bluetooth units. This would reduce a lot of overhead from GM. They could stick to designing a quality car lineup and leave the little details to other more qualified companies.

That's what I want to see. But I know it's not going to happen. I know my tax money is being wasted on a lost cause but at least I voiced my opinion.

sm0ke:

Wow you guys are retarded they need to sell Buick, GM Daewoo, Holden, Hummer, Opel, Pontiac, Saab, Saturn, Vauxhall, and Wuling. They should keep either GMC or Hummer i would prefer if they kept Hummer they are more truck like and no matter how you look at it people will still need to work. And they need to keep Chevrolet as the entry level brand and try to establish them in Europe. They need Cadillac as a luxury brand. And sell all their stake in Suzuki which i know they were looking at doing. Chevrolet should solely be responsible for developing car platforms and mini-van and crossover platforms. Then just re badge them for Cadillac with higher quality materials of course. And GMC(Hummer) should solely be responsible for developing truck platforms that's it!! Again i prefer they keep Hummer over GMC. Hummer's have more of a rugged manly truck feel which should be what you feel when you see and get into a truck. Hell at that point GM should be doing well enough where they can re badge a Hummer truck to a Cadillac again with the same platform but with a more luxurious feel. But the rest need to die or be sold off!!!

you say GM should keep hummer and your calling US retarded?

Hummer gets the axe. Those things are plastic clad crap.

GMC gets the axe. I never understood the GMC/Chevy thing. Why?

Pontiac gets the axe. Do they have a unique platform anymore? I can't recall at the moment. All the more reason for the axe.

Saturn. Hmmmm. There are platforms i think look better as a Saturn. Maybe Saturn stays as the Scion equivalent of Toyota.

Cadillac stays. Every automaker needs a luxury division. Even Hyundai is creeping into the market.

3 basic lines to focus on. If that's too complicated, dump Saturn.

The other half of the battle is behind friendly lines. Get rid of leeching unions and make people actually have to get ahead in life based on skill and ambition, instead of the song and dance currently in effect.

avatar: are you referring to your street, maybe your city or even 'south dakota'? I recommend you should consider 'global'

Second, you are clearly stupid as Wagoneer: nothing cost anything and yet you are broke. Run your factories at full speed producing stuff that no-one buys, to avoid under-recovery. Dont consider costs elsewhere in the chain.

The japs, now they are stupid (and profitable).

When you are done with you paper-run, please hit the books, and dont post again until your are done.

Yeah, also take Buick and GMC with it. After that, make sure those designers from Buick never step in the door again. Then take the designers from GMC and put them in charger of the truck's styling at Chevy.

Funnier still lowest iq. Chevy and Cadillac are global. Pontiac is North America only and are rebadged Holdens or Chevys, just like Acura (1986 America only again, just now moving to other markets), Lexus (1989 America again, and just recently moving global), and Infiniti (started 1989 America only, now includes other countries). Apparently there is a need to have different brands in North America since all the imports have done as much, minus the Koreans, Volkswagen which has had Audi since 1964, Benz, and BMW.

Buick is North America and China. GMC is North America and Middle East, where gas guzzling still rules supreme. Holden is sold the world over as re-badges. Opel is sold here as Saturn’s which are falling. And Saturn is the only company in GM's pool that only sells in America and Canada though again, they don't sell as well as Pontiacs do, with a full line up over Pontiac's partial, rebadged line up.

Pay workers to do nothing or do something. Which makes more sense? I know, fire them and pay them for being pink slipped, their health care for life, and a pension or have to buy them out, genius. I think that covers your second comment.

As has been said before, both the Japs and Germans have been getting subsidies from Japan and Germany since they have been born. So the Big 3 ask for a Loan, and everyone cries hand out? Lmao. Apparently people don't understand that you pay loans back. Of course, the Big 3 can fill Chapter 13, which would then mean all union pensions and health care obligations is dumped at the tax payers door steps. So give a loan or hand out money?

lowest iq is an understatement.

Lastly, the PBG sales channel sells just as much as Chevy does in North America, with a smaller line up and less dealers.

And those trucks you were complaining about, well GM sold nearly twice as many trucks as cars last month.

i like avatar lol bro you said about everything i would of said.

aaayaa Avatar. Havent listened apparently. Dont know the difference between brands and platforms, do you?

Chevy global???
You mean the brand? The cars: no. Outside US: Daewoo badges. Australia got Holdens which, in some strategic view that lasted 6 months, was made responsible for the mid-sze platform. Its now a Pontiac outside Oz. The rest of the world doesnt need Holdens, except for a few geeks in the UK.
Cadillac global: not really, unless you mean the Saab based mongrel.
Besides these 'volume' attempts, there are some very tiny numbers of US produced/platformed cars outside the americas...
By the way, GM is broke you know...

At Ford the picture is no different, except that they have a tightly managed brand. Outside US they cater(-ed) for the Highend trough Volvo and Jag. Now that those are gone, be sure they will not bring the Lincoln Mercury crap to Eu/Asia.

Chrysler is trying hard to sell stuff outside the americas. Not too successful alas, they are the original US versions.

Underlying driver for branding is marketshare and channel management.
Because of the typicalities of the American market (i say 'the american car executives'), there is this notion that above 10% ms, you need a 2nd brand.

That why non of the Euro brand have second brands, except when they bough-over another company (you mention VW with Audi, but there is Fiat/Lancia/Alfa/ Ferrari, Peugeot/Citroen, BMW/Mini and Mercedes/Maybach). If you look more closer, you can see that some companies acquired brands complimentary to their own footprint. They kept the brand.

In Japan different again: there is no Lexus, Infinity and all that fake American brand crap. In fact senior japanse car execs snigger when asked about this.

Running factories at full throttle producing junk: well i'm not adding anything here anymore to what our congress men have said.

Lastly, no the Euro/Jap companies have not ever received subsidies, nor have they received army orders for trucks/jeeps (interestingly those are made by separate companies), nor have they ever begged their governments for US30b (in April it ill be US130b)

Wow, you keep digging a bigger and bigger hole. Ever hear of the Chevrolet Lumina? True, it stopped production in America in 2001, but it started production as a re-badged Holden that apparently isn't sold the world over in 1998 and is still sold to this day in the Middle East and South Africa. Pickups, call them Chevy or GMC are now rebadged as Holdens down under.

Brazil, they are there.
Chile, , rebadged as Isuzu.
Ecuador has Chevy, Daewoo, and Opel, for about 80 years now.
Venezuela, over 50 years again.
Argentina, rebadges of Opels and Suzuki's.
In Europe, until 2005, GM sold rebadged Chevy's as rebadged Daewoos. Now Chevy is in Europe.
Corvette is actually a separate brand in Europe now.
Middle East, trucks, SUVs, and rebadge Holdens.
Pakistan as of 2005.
India now as just about a full lineup of Chevy's since 2003.
Japan, rebadged as Suzuki.
South Africa, rebadged Holdens and Opels.
Russia, trucks, SUVs, and rebadged Daewoos.

So what was that about Chevy not being 'global'? Chevy was global before all these 'fake' Japan companies started going 'global'.

Cadillac is in Europe, Australia, and plans to move to China. Not 'global' enough for you? That covers more then half the worlds population at that point.

I don't remember mentioning Chrysler or Ford actually and global sales? Nuts, another chance to prove you wrong presents itself.

Ever heard of the Ford Mondeo? Very popular outside the US. Ford is in Europe, Australia, South America, the Middle East, Africa, India, and in other parts of Asia as Mazda's.

Dodge is in North America, Europe was reintroduced with a full line up in 2006, Middle East, Japan, China, and South Korea. Last I checked, Chrysler, LLC still owned Dodge, so I think that counts.

Lexus actually started introduced into Japan on July 26, 2005. Started selling in 2006. Sucks to be you. As well as 57 other countries, so much for fake American crap.

Infiniti likewise is sold the world over. Again, so much for the fake American crap, no plans to go to Japan yet. But with Acura and Lexus there, Infiniti can't be far off.

Fiat/Lancia/Alfa haven't been in America for a while now same with Peugeot/Citroen.

Really, no help from Japan for Toyota? Not according to James Press, a former executive from Toyota. "The Japanese government had subsidized “100% of the research and development costs” of the automaker’s gas-electric hybrid system that was launched in the 1997 Prius and now powers all of Toyota’s hybrid vehicles." Hmmm, that sounds like help to me.

We are aware that Volkswagen was the birth child of Hitler and sold cars at a loss because Hitler said so?

You are starting to make my day daily lowest iq.

Oh, three more things about Holden and 'global' status. They developed the 'global' Zeta platform and the 'global' Alpha platform. They also helped development on the 'global' Ecotec line of engines. Still not 'global' enough for you?

No use Avatar. Great company, great cars. Except they are broke.

You dont read my post, then fine. Write what you want.
You definitions for 'global' 'the world over' etc are your own fabrication. If you equate a 15m car/year market with a 35k/year market (Pakistan). Good luck with it.

I guess the mere half million cars a year Lexus sells is nothing then?

They only just started in Pakistan, so I think they will take 35k a year in a new market for them vs nothing at all.

I guess the mere half million cars a year Lexus sells is nothing then?

They only just started in Pakistan, so I think they will take 35k a year in a new market for them vs nothing at all.

The best though is I am now making up global dispite giving evedence contrary to what you say.

I agree with Andrew at the begining of this post. GM needs to stop its arrogance, and kill this excessive brand overlapping. The only thing I disagree with is the death of Buick, and that is because of its popularity in China. Buicks are huge there, and they arent even the same car as here, if we brought those over and replace our rubbish Buicks, there sales would improve.

GM needs to get rid of all its old brands and create a new one called "Crap".