GM, Ford and Chrysler make crap. It's their fault that GM owners for example have to take their Chevy Malibus after 30k to change gaskets (mixing oil and coolant). I don't own GM or Ford car for some time now. I'm happy with Mitsubishi and Toyota i drive (60k on it...not a single thing replaced), and as far as i'm concern won't peek in GM, Ford etc dealership till they put the things right.

Btw that's the point of Capitalism, to learn and pay for wrong business decisions and not to be bailed out by gov every year.

I think we all should learn lesson from this and change the things as soon as possible.

The God Damn Unions Killed Detroit.

"According to a recent poll the majority of U.S. adults feel that the government should provide loans to the auto industry."

Yes, well we've also known for a few decades that the majority of Americans are morons. Why do you think that so many of them believe that there is such a thing as "free" health care? Just because you don't pay the bill when you get treatment doesn't mean you don't pay for it in taxes (where else do they think the money comes from?).

"In addition, aid to automakers is viewed as just as important or more important than aid to the financial sector"

No, it's not. Banks are where people keep their money -- pretty much everyone has their money in the bank. Also, banks are where people get loans -- loans for college, buying cars, buying houses, etc. The damage massive bank failures do to the economy is much, MUCH higher than if the auto industry fails. Besides, it's been at least 40 years since the American auto industry has had real competition and they've had more than enough time to learn to compete, but they chose to make dumb decisions again and again.

It's the unions, not the cars that are killing these companies. Don't kid yourself, they sell lots of cars, but the cost of each car is so much higher than the import competition that they don't make any money when they sell them.

Just take the damn loan!! but start building better cars know!! and better quality interior... you know when you wash your car and it feels better, or when you do a oil change and for some reason it feels faster, well make a better interior(material quality, looks, especially stearing wheel) and it will feel better first hand, then make it reliable. And people will buy it.

Oh! and why not stop building really cool concepts (that cost millions) that are never even ment to be built. Build it=sell it. its that easy.
And I do agree, they do have to survive, none of my cars are any of the big 3 (im not dumb i think for my own pocket) but if they bring it up a knotch i'll be back.

the only reason you guys dont support the an auto bail out is because you guys hate american autos makers and dont think of what it would mean to this great country. you guys are so stupid, this would cripple our economy. If we werent in a recession, then fuck it let them die. but we are, we dont need unemployment to hit 10%+. we dont need our GDP to drop below the Asian and European markets. America i love America, and i hate what the Republican party has done to it, and now they are signing our death certificate, by not allowing a bail out of the auto industry but they did support bailing out corrupt bankers and insurance firms, that had CEO's that got millions out declaring bankruptcy, but everyone forgets about that, this is capitalisim blah blah blah, let ruin ourselves. lets use the 700 bil to save American jobs and create more not to make the rich richer.

Let them go bankrupt, and bail them out after the BK goes through. What killed the 3 are the union contracts and extravagent retirement/pensions. Bankruptcy will allow them to renegotiate with the unions get out of the retarded pensions. Then they will be stable. Bailing them out pre-BK will just postpone the cancer growing for a few more years.

nothing.

You'll get other brands taking up the space. Some of them will build modern factories here, demand local suppliers to upgrade to 21st century grade product and will give their workers modern contracts.

Really, its time that America drops its 19th century industrial habits and moves on.
We have had the courage to vote Obama in, now lets push for the rest as well!

Tim:

After working 30+ years, I'm sure that the retirees, who were promised a pension, will be happy to hear you say that their work there was for not. That they don't deserve what they were promised.

Don't get me wrong, the pensions are hurting the companies, but is that the retirees fault? These people based their retirement on the idea that they would get a pension. Whereas nowadays, 401ks are the preferred retirement plan.

Good could come of filing for bankruptcy protection, however, that shouldn't mean that those people who have put in their time already should lose what they were promised.

Further, if the bankruptcy protection doesn't stop the company from going under, then we're looking at a massive chain reaction. You think the 3 million jobs that this will affect is where the ball stops? 3 million people affected means that less overall goods will be bought, less demand will result, and more jobs will be lost worldwide... outside of the Automobile industry.

this is nonsense. first, ford will not die.
second, they will not die quickly. it won't happen in just a year. the loan they needed is futile.
what the government needs to do is prepare for what will happen. other manufacturers can absorb what is lost in GM and Chrysler, jobs, suppliers, taxes, and the gdp they're talking about in the video.
this is a painful change but nothing will be lost, only the huge profits of those corporate execs and rich stockholders.

"...
-If all three fail next year it will result in 3 million U.S. jobs lost in the first year
-Total governement tax loss over three years = $156.4 billion
-The U.S. GDP would drop 4 percent, compare that to the fact that the current economic downturn was caused by a .3 percent drop ..."

and Totenglocke:
"According to a recent poll the majority of U.S. adults feel that the government should provide loans to the auto industry."

Bad things may happen anyway, but we don't have to believe in all the numbers and the polls (mostly given buy them). They need the money, so they provided this information to scare everyone.

Market has its function and will absorb some jobs, and talented people always has their chance. And as someone already mentioned, it's about time to upgrade the industry (in technology and structure).

Maybe we'll see the totally new Big Three in american auto industry after 20 yrs building revolutionary vehicles (maybe we don't call "cars" anymore?). It's been about 100 yrs now and seems not too good, why not to change?

I own a 2001 ford Escape and have 70k trouble free miles on it. nothing more than normal maintenence. None of the American cars I have owned (Ford, Jeep, Lincoln, Mercury) have ever had any issues. Don't know what some of these guys are talking about with quality. Toyota interiors are some of the cheapest around and the cars are just appliances really and are not fun to drive Engines are good though. My mazda had to have the seat replaced, along with the clutch at 15k due to chatter and under a recall. My Wife's Hyundai has been in 4 times for recalls and several interior issues. My brother in law has had his 2004 civic in 3 times with suspension and brake issues. Point is, Most of the players except for Chrysler and maybe Hyndai and the smaller brands are pretty much on par with each other as far as quality.

Perception is the issue and I will support American companies any day. The Unions should be shut down and money from them split amongst the retired workers. The Government should give incentives to the american auto industry to start manufacturing back in the USA. We need to be proud of what we make and not build things out of the country and support other economies. Wait until Chinese cars come over here and you will see how bad foreign quality can be.

Scare tatics by GM, to make the avg american scared, so that we can all forget about that this is their fault and just hand them the money. BS. Yeah jobs will be lost, but here is an idea how about taking that bailout money and putting it towards job creation so that the people that lose their jobs from these companies will have a place to work.

Every other developed country in the world has unions and they are doing better than US. They also have better cheaper health care. Why? Because they don't make crap. I agree the previous commenter that America should move from the 20th century to 21st. If you give loans to car makers they don't change anything, will fail and then the money is lost. Problem is that they don't have customers - not the unions.

Nobody in the europe or asia would buy an American car and it seems to me that only a few American does it either. Make cars that people will buy and your business will go fine.

Ford is doing all the right things now, hope they will survive.

The big three can disappear ?

I feel that until they auto industry gets rid of over paid employees (ie. union workers) then we shouldn't give them a dime. I won't buy from any manufacturer who's employees are unionized. The products are always more expensive. Why the hell should I pay a premium just because the thugs in the UAW are calling the shots? The US car industry can go to hell in a hand basket unless they start joining the rest of us in the real world. It's not the products per-say but the price points. There's no value whatsoever when 7k - 10k of the sticker price is just there to offset their union contracts. Economics 101: If you're failing at something, change the game plan. Don't keep repeating it.

I'm sure some union stooge will have something to say about this, but hey, you're the one in jeopardy of losing everything. Not me.

"After working 30+ years, I'm sure that the retirees, who were promised a pension, will be happy to hear you say that their work there was for not. That they don't deserve what they were promised."

That's a silly rational, as you are asking the taxpayers, who were no part of said promise, to fulfill it.

If my dad died before he could buy me that power-boat he had been promising and for which I had done all my homework, should the government buy it for me?

On-topic. Before we can intelligently discuss the value of a bail-out we need to know what is involved (are we talking loans?) what the long term plan is (when will we be paid back and what's the plan to do so?) and viability (does said plan show a high likelyhood to work?).

If a company, but particularly one so large in the US economy as one of the "Detroit three" has a viable business plan, then it's reasonable to make funds available to them to persue it.

Per the UAW's website based on 2007 figures:

GM has 270,000 retirees pulling a pension.
The average pension is $36,240 a year.

GM's pension cost for these former employees is 4.42 billion a year.

Therefore GM spends (with administrative costs) between 14 and 15 billion a year on something that ads no value whatsoever to their products or the company.

GM now sells around 7-8 million annually worldwide.

Therefore $1,700-2,000 per vehicle goes to pay for past labor. Labor that doesn't benefit the current company at all.

This is the reason GM cannot prevail. That is a ton of money to pay for nothing.

The 4.42 billion is for medical costs...

Am I the only one who thinks that the problem is the cars who nobody buys - not the employees??? If so, I don't see anyone making those crappy cars soon.

jhurst747 must be without a car, since there is no car (except maybe those made in china) that is made in a factory without union workers.

I believe the real problem are the Unions that have become small monpoly dictatorships, the legal MOB. I realize that a bail out for very poor business decisions will happen due to the democratic support and colution with unions, the MOB. The liberals will never, never, get to the root of any problem, instead they will mandate laws, controls and budgets to distroy not just our future but the freedom and future of all Americans. Because they think they are above everyone and can not humble themselves to get the dirty work done to really fix any problem.

In stead of loans ("give us your tax money or the sky will fall"), buy these companies for a song, replace management and start making cars that people want, need and can afford now.
Write off the old SUV, truck and muscle car junk and invest those billions in new projects. The only way to lead the auto world in the 21st century is by producing hybrid, electrical, hydrogen and natural gas powered vehicles. Want a new project to create jobs? Develop nationwide infrastructures for those alternative fuel technologies.
And look at some of the new personal people carriers that Honda and Toyota are developing.

I will agree the unions are mostly to blame. Consider this however. America just elected a new president that i he could have it 100% his way. Every business would be unionized. Apparently most of you don't care about the economy that much... Or you would have recognized this. Vote NO on the EFCA. Or watch the rest of the industries die to unions.

@Bobby & Scott:

You both hit the nail right on the head. I say no bailouts for them without killing the UAW first. Let the workers have some competition for their jobs, hell they may even get better at them.

@muscleoverrice:

Your assumption that the Republicans have caused the current situation is way wrong, blame your liberal tree hugging Dems for getting broke ass people into houses that couldn't afford it. That's what caused most of the mess were in now. Sure home ownership went up for a while, but if you're counting food stamps as part of your income you should be buying a house for $150K!!! Now all the rich people who made it through the first bubble burst are buying up those properties at huge discounts and making even more money. Gotta love capitalism.

For those of you that think the UAW is not part of the problems:

GM Labor Costs
$31.25/h for non-skilled labor worker, (includes idle pay)
Average Hourly Pay (including benefits): $73.73
77 Plants in North America, all Unionized
White collar: 36,000
Production: 106,000
Retirees: 460,000
Health Care Cost per Vehicle: $1,525

Compared to Toyota
$27/h for non-skilled labor worker, includes end year bonus
Average Hourly Pay (including benefits): $48
12 Plants in North America, 3 Unionized
White collar: 17,000
Production: 21,000
Retirees: 1,600
Health Care Cost per Vehicle: $201

Gary wasn't it the stupid ass Americans then having those loans? As long as I have gone to bank I have had an option not to get $150k in loans...

Things just have changed in the world after happy 60's and Republicans just have made the US economy too slow to react. It's time to pay back.

My last rant:

I like how the video neglects to point out the fact that the other American's who don't lose their jobs will still be buying cars. It's not like if the Big 3 go under that nobody will buy up their factories, hire their better employees, get contracts with their suppliers, etc... Bad business models fail only to be replaced by good business models. Sure it'll hurt like hell for a while, but it's better to have a tumor cut out of me than to borrow money for some oversized clothes to cover it up.

They must let business fail. Our current world economic model does not work in the long run. It is based off of an ever expanding population of consumers, of which in the next 10 years will mostly be retired. The north american economy is due for a reset. It will hurt but we need to bottom out and start again.

For the auto industry, yes they need to make better cars. It looks like they are starting to head down that road but they should have been there years ago. Again, let them fail. The video is very misleading. First I doubt that they all will fail. Once one goes down then the market share should grow for the others, unless of course the consumer loses faith in the remaining members and goes import. As far as 3 million jobs lost and the taxes I would have to believe that a good portion will switch products to support the market, and taxes would only take about a 25% hit from jobs lost and employees paying taxes. As the market moves towards other products you will still have the sales tax and import tax, etc...

We are in for some hard times but it's best to get it over with and rebuild. The longer it is artificially kept afloat then the longer it will take to recover when it does finally crash.

"the only reason you guys dont support the an auto bail out is because you guys hate american autos makers and dont think of what it would mean to this great country."

No, we hate taxpayers having to bail out companies who've had decades to learn how to compete after foreign competition came into the market and never learned how. They had plenty of chances to get things right, but blew it time and time again.

"you guys are so stupid, this would cripple our economy."

It would do some damage for a few years, yes, but it wouldn't cripple it. Also, the majority of professional economists are strongly AGAINST bailing them out. We can either let them die now or keep spending hundreds of billions each decade to drag their bloated corpse along until people finally get smart enough to let them die.

I always hate to see large companies with over paid CEO's asking for a government bailout when they have so many assets. We had no choice to bailout the bank/financial industy becuase millions of people could have potentially lost access to their money.

I just dont understand why the big three are in so much trouble. GM has 8 brands, Ford has 5 brands and Crysler has three brands. I just dont understand why the dont sell or kill off the brands that are not making them money. That way they can focus their resources into the profitable brands and acctually start turning a profit instead of trying to keep a brand going that is dragging them down.

Bad managment leads to poor profits. If we give them the money a stipulation of the bailout should be the resignation of all the CEO's of these companies. The way I see it, if you are running a multi-billion dollar company and you have to ask the government for help then you shouldn't be running that company.

As a capitalist society we should not reward failure of a company.

just my 2 cents

Giving money to the big three now is like giving money to cigarette companies to help cure cancer.

Do you really think their habits will change? Do you really think that GM will make better cars and change their strategy?

Why should taxpayers like us have to bailout these ailing, dinosaur companies?

Let Detroit go down in flames, like it was meant to.. there's plenty of other automakers that can take up the leftover U.S. demand.

The cars the BIG three are not the problem. It is the negative comments that people hear on numerous sites about them.

I have owned cars from Honda, Acura, Mercedes, etc.. They all have problems and people tend to ignore the problems these cars have for what ever reason...

Should the government bail out Detroit? No.

Should the BIG three work on changing the consumer mind? Well they have been doing that lately.

Will America survive if the big three are gone. Yes it will. In fact we need them to be gone so the unions can disappear.

Next we will be bailing out Exxon, Walmart, and pharmaceutical companies. I guess the government hasn't learned its lesson from welfare, it doesn't work.

LET THEM DIE! We need to let the market correct itself! This reminds me of a commercial where some dam inspectors find a small leak in a dam and plug it with chewing gum and walk away. The dam then collapses. This bailout is like the chewing gum (a very short term delay to the inevitable) and the "big 3" are the dam (screwed no matter how you look at it). Do you want to deal with a recession or deal with a Depression when these same banks and auto companies don't LEARN from their mistakes because their Mommy (the gov.) made it all better for them and then they fail later worse than they would now?

I can't wait till the day that I never hear the names.... Ford, GM, Chrysler. Why can't they just go away?

-jOSH

Here is the thing even if they go bankrupt, which would likely be chapter 11. They aren't going anywhere which is why lobbyist videos like the this piss me off. It's not like all the current cars on the road aren't going to need part either.

If they do a deal and they will, UAW should be out, pensions subsidized by local states based on by sales and all executives out. Because if we are going to bail them and we will, the executives need to get a clear message that failure will not be tolerated. No parachutes either, but that should be a given.

I still say the loss of the big three disastrous for the US and would be an official sign of the end of being an economic superpower. After reading some of the narrow minded post that may be unavoidable anyway. The US can't be a service only country, that is a dead end road.

I lost my job in April and the company that laid me off closed its doors this month. They failed to adapt to the marketplace they served and that forced them out of business.

Now, no one came along and saved my company so they could continue to limp along and not compete.

Why should tax dollars support an industry that will just produce another Impala, or F150, or Sebring?
Because a lot of people are depending on them?

Cry me a fecking river.

The writing has been on the wall for a long time now.

"The US can't be a service only country, that is a dead end road."

Americans want low prices and high wages -- that doesn't fly in the business world. You can have high wages and high prices, medium wages and medium prices, or low wages and low prices. People thinking that doing unskilled work deserves the same pay as people who spent several years in college are why we can't manufacture many things in the US anymore.

GM, Ford, and Dodge don't deserve a bail out. I feel sorry for the people who work for them, and the suppliers they partnered with.

So, what? We're lead to believe that the US Auto Industry wasn't aware of it's HUGE oversight in spending? I mean, c'mon, where was all the talk about this supposed breakdown in the auto industry three months back? A year? I mean, if their analysts knew anything, or were worth their HUGE salaries. They would have been crying foul and wolf last year. Projected sales, based on markets within the US, and sales projections should have alerted these ibeciles to a growing problem.

My theory is this.

They don't need the money. As soon as the Fed Gov started ante'ing up the stakes and throwing money into a hole they can't fill at this point. The Big Three waste's of space, money, and man power in Detroit figured........."HEY!!! They're giving money away!!"

Why don't we get in on the act?

Let em fail. The auto industry accounts for a very MINIMAL portion of the GDP to begin with. Cars have NEVER been a great export item from the US. Other countries have us beat in that area, like so many others.

Why bail em out? THey don't need it. They'll only waste it away like the fools that blew $400K+ on spa treatments and rub downs.

I mean, really, how can you callously state that you've just been burning thru $52,000.00 a minute, $3.1 million and hour.

I'd chalk that up to carelessness and reckless spending, and HUGE oversights in management.

Let's see your projected sales and manufacturing figures for 2007, and projections for 2008. THEN come back and tell me that you didn't know a damned thing about what was going on.

Let em fail.

Why should OUR tax dollars be used to bail out an already failed industry.

American Made meant something at one point in time, but, the rest of the World isn't held to our standards of protection of the environment, and a fare wage for everyone.......so, here we are. Outsourced and beat outright by foreign manufacturers.

Get out, stay out, and leave it at that. We can't compete, simple enough.

Focus our efforts, dollars and man power on something else. We're the greatest country on Earth..........I'm sure we've got to be good at something?

nice theory I like all the stats you bring up, how about you come up with a theory that will hold water. Do some research, then post something of intelligence................................... Your theory is a JOKE

um luka,
#1, learn how to spell, and use correct grammar
#2, i have a boosted gm vehicle, coming up on 50k and the only thing I've had to replace was my brake rotors and oil, you know, regular maintenance.
oh, did i mention it's a saturn? i bet that makes you feel even worse.

People need to get their facts straight before opening their big (uneducated) mouths.

You people all so stupid. This is America its call free market not government... Aholes are you people for paying for this crap. Its time they fail they blew so much money on things like they need that high rise GM building were is the reinvestment in the worker and the product, hey it really don't matter what is at stake is free enterprise not socialize... If you want to bitch get rid of the congress idiots and take up arms and out the government as they have and are in breech of the constitution READ it and you will see they are and its a call to arms and a complete ousting that is needed. Look at the AGE of those aholes you really think they care about you? Look what they have done. GM makes a good car and so does the other 2 but what is going on is this is POLITICS people and its bigger than you know... WE NEED to 100 percent just stop buyouts and payoffs to congress senators and other government officals.... taking my tax dollars to give to another human is just wrong so they have a job... we need people to stop thinking the governemtn is so great, its for a few things infastructure, protection and disastors... NOT BAILOUTS NOT HANDOUTS... LOOK people how big it has become... look how many offices and buildings it owns... are you people shittin me. wake wake wake wake up... You keep buying in but don't have the nuts to step up and do whats needed... Oh we would rather worry about other things. Guess we all need a purpose in life how freaking small has this race become.... You seem to foget one thing. You gonna DIE... so who gives a rats ass

@miked the fucktard

Learn to type please, your coment is just a jumbled mess.

Sorry, Your comment is just a jumbled mess.

Too bad the American people can't form some sort of lobbying group to stop the bailout. Those lobbying groups know how to get things done.

.the big wigs and get rid of the unions.too all the dumb asses that they think the big 3 doesn't build good vehicals.they probably can't afford the price of the vehical in the first place. Keep taking the bus to your minimum wage job and quit.bitchinghing.if you could only afford to drive a dodge challenger you would! Can you say hemi??????

Like President Obama Said "they are NOT building the right Products" We Should Not Let them Collapse But We should not Give them 25 Billion just because they fukd up and made tooooooo many V-8's when gas was $4 a gallon!