Completely true if the Porsches were driven by two Japanese, and the Nissan by a German. Otherwise i dont believe it.

lowest iq:

You must have watched Tokyo Drift too many times. Obviously you have never heard of Michael Schumacher...

I'm skeptical about Porsche's comments, but I'll be interested to if what Nissan has to say, if they say anything.

im also skeptical, especially saying its 25 seconds slower. that is too much.
in a Top Gear episode, wherein the Stig used the GTR in their test track, it just left all porsches behind, coming close to ferrari enzo and other super expensive supercars.
i believe in porsches but the rear engine configuration limits its handling capabilities.

There have been rumors about Nissan tweaking and using different tires on the GT-Rs at The Ring since 7:38. At 7:29, there were even more rumors about tweaking, tuning, and tires.

Porsche manage to shave some time off their lap time for the 911 Turbo and was a couple seconds slower on the GT2, so conditions were good. The GT-R is also easier to drive relative to the 911 Turbo and GT2, DSG, AWD (compared to the GT2), and techno goodies. Granted, I haven't driven a GT2 or GT-R, but 500+ hp will be easier to control with AWD and DSG as compared to RWD with a stick.

We already know that Nissan underrates the GT-R, why not fudge lap times too?

Hmmm, would I trust Nissan or Porshe with their performance car specifications, test methodology and honestly? Nissan has nothing to loose with 'tweeking' the test while Porshe has a long history of making serious stock performance cars. Nissan = 0, Porche = 1. Speaking of not taking someone serious, what about those test drives from Top Gear? please... Gag - puke

All test drives are subject to verification, but I seriously doubt a stock off-the-shelf Nissan is a supercar class performer. But, we know we can trust Nissan to be fair and balanced - just like Fox news.

the GTR got fudged.

wamp wamp

Bruno Senna tested a 911 turbo, his favorite car, against a GT-R in Fifth Gear a few weeks back. Both were driven by him. It was the first time he drove a GT-R, while he knew the 911 inside out. The Nissan beat his Porsche lap by half a second.
Maybe he cheated too, despite being a Porsche fan.

I can see why Porsche would want to set the record straight:

Price: Nissan.
Performace: Nissan.
Reliability: Nissan.
Possible cost of ownership: Nissan.
Looks: Subjective, but I like the Nissan better.

And let's say Nissan doesn't match Porsche's performance. Does it really matter? The GT-R is cheaper, better looking and provably more reliable, so Nissan wins...

May be it's time somebody start regulating the running of the ring? What I mean is if a company is going to use the lap time at the ring for the benefit of advertising, then they should submit to inspection by the ring official, at their expense.

This is not really news. Anyone in the auto press industry already suspects this. Nissan has had a history of feeding 'ringers' to the press for years now. Now I'm not accusing Nissan of cheating, per se, but there's been more than a few auto magazines (online & paper) that have debated whether this is happening. The fact that it is being debated speaks volumes, since many journalists have gone on record saying the GT-R's they have driven don't feel like the ones they used to publish specs/times in their articles.

@Mazda6 Guy

you are a total clown with the statements you made. If you knew anything at all you'd know Porsche is considered a top tier manufacturer regarding reliability (do some research), while Nissan 's quality is already documented to be middling at best.

@Topper

that's a great idea in concept but not enforceable. Ideally, the way to prevent cheating is to show up at a random dealership & pull a car off the lot. Will the dealership allow this? No. Will the manufacturers want to do this? No. Will the status quo remain? Yes.

Wasn't the GT-R that Nessan used in the ring a right-hand drive.

In addition to Arthur Pappas comments:

Price: Nissan.
Performace: Nissan.
Reliability: Nissan.
Possible cost of ownership: Nissan.
Looks: Subjective, but I like the Nissan better

Starting from the bottom of your list, I would like to argue that the Porsche is stylistic superior to the Skyline in all regards. While this might be a subjective topic, the exterior design of the skyline has been referred to as ugly in several magazine. That's not just my opinion. Moving onto the interior, the cabin of the skyline is undebatably underwhelming. The Porsche is subtle and classy while the Skyline seems to lose out even to a Vette in this category.

I'm not sure how possible cost of ownership would be significantly influenced by anything else other than price of the car given that both cars will probably havethe same maintanence, same insurance, and same fuel consumption costs. The Porsche is guaranteed to hold very high resale value, with the likeliness of it increasing over time. The Skyline will most likely experience the same change in value.

The performance of these two cars on paper seems like somewhat of a mismatch, and it is important to identify what can realistically be accounted for when judging performance.

Clearly the most important factors to performance are power, weight, weight distribution, and traction.

The GT2 is officially more powerful than the Skyline, although whether or not Nissan underates their cars is debatable.

GT2:
Horsepower 530 hp (400 kW)
Torque 505 lb·ft (685 N·m) @ rpm 2,200 - 4,500 rpm

Skyline
Horsepower: 480 bhp (360 kW) at 6400 rpm
Torque: 430 ft·lbf (580 N·m)

The weight of the cars are probably the biggest indicator of their differences as the Porsche weighs nearly half a ton less.

GT2:
1,440 kg (3,175 lb)

Skyline:
1730 kg (3814 lb)

The only thing left now is weight distribution and traction.

The Porsche GT2 distributes approximately 39% to the front wheels and 61% to the back wheels. The Skyline on the other hand has 52% going to the front while 48% going to the rear.

In terms of traction, the Porsche is benefiting from the increase weight to the rear wheels while the Skyline has the advantage of AWD.

If you throw the 911 turbo into the mix, the stats become more even with the Turbo only making 480 hp and weighing approximately 1585 kg (3494.3 lbs).

The price is clearly a win for the Skyline however I wouldn't say that the Porsches are overpriced. I think the 911 turbo is priced at $122k while the GT2 is $192k. The price difference between the Turbo and the Skyline suddenly doesn't seem so large after taking into consideration that Nissan recently raised the price closer to $80k. Still quite a bit cheaper, but not enough to start calling the Porsche a blatant ripoff.

So in conclusion, do I find it hard to believe that a GT2 would run 25 seconds faster than the Skyline? Not at all. It has more power, less weight, and an amazing chassis that has been the standard of performance for many years.

This goes back to the article posted on here about having standards for the 'Ring times. All the numbers are BS in my eyes until there is testing/inspection and guidelines to follow. Hell I could probably get my Integra around the 'Ring that fast if I had enough money didn't tell anyone how I got it.

It seems to me that this sounds like a legitimate claim, since car manufacturers routinely drive the competition's cars to establish baseline goals for their own cars. When there is a large margin of error between what you can do versus what it says you can do on paper then some one screwed up. I'm guessing test drivers at PORSCHE know what they are doing, and that people in the industry trust Porsche in making such claims. This is same stuff the Japanese auto companies have been pulling for years, like inflated horsepower numbers on their base models and accelerated odometers to void warranties sooner.

@Mazda6 guy

"And let's say Nissan doesn't match Porsche's performance. Does it really matter?"

Yeah it does matter that Nissan made outrageous performance claims that were proven false. Where I come from we call that "integrity." You wouldn't be saying the same thing if the "worlds safest" car's air bag didn't protect you the way they claimed it did, in order to boost sales. Brainless fan boys...

for all those who think they fudged the times , watch the video.

as far as tweaking and tires , when i see and independent group compare the cars and run a succesful run around the ring then will i believe.

both cars are great , but obviously one is being hated on.

do hate , procreate

Nah, Porsche's not biased.

What possible motivation would they have in making the GT-R look bad?

TR sucks , they leave out alot of useful information. Screw reading the TR article , just read its source.

what i think is the most important info left out :

"The laps were not run by Porsche's usual hot-lap specialist, former world rally champion and race winner Walter Rohrl, but one of the company's chassis development engineers who is an expert on the Nurburgring."

Who cares, I would rather have a Porsche than any Nissan.
Top gear Australia had the Stig drive Nissan GTR and a Porsche around their track, Nissan clearly was so much quicker, but its a Nissan!!!
See video which can be found on Usenet and most likely Bittorrent

makes sense, both GT2 and 911 turbo are known and acclaimed track cars, it sounds impossible that a 4000 pound godzilla short on power would be able to outrun these, even with the super fast, low geared tranny.

another reason why i had a hard time believing nissan's times is that it was 4-5 sec behind the ZR1... for crying out loud, ZR-1 has got wider tyres, 150+ Hp advantage and over half a ton weight advantage, that should be more than 5 sec on stock cars.... if they only didn't shoot so high....

What a waste of time this all is...

I prefer objective testers, and considering so far the only two possible objective tests have been on top gear and fifth gear, where as mentioned it did a 1:19.something on top gear, and was 0.5 seconds faster around a 1:40ish per lap circuit on fifth gear with the same driver.

Have fun kids...

Steve:
"brainless fanboys...." yes, because Porsche would never lie right? and since they are accusing Nissan then Nissan must be lying right?...

Arthur Pappas:

"you are a total clown with the statements you made. If you knew anything at all you'd know Porsche is considered a top tier manufacturer regarding reliability (do some research), while Nissan 's quality is already documented to be middling at best."

I would ask you do the research, Porsche wouldn't come to mind when talking about reliability, I could show you horror stories about Porsche ownership just like you could about Nissan, or Toyota, or Honda, or whoever you like.

And while some journalists might wonder about the GT-R, there will always be those that just like Porsche better, much like BMW, say, like Car & Driver?

Sorry if you don't like Nissan beating the Porsche, but that is just reality. Just think about what it will be like if Nissan actually decides to run the test again...

Yup, Top Gear, they have run the 911 GT3 RS around the track, not the GT2 which happens to be more powerful (415 hp vs 530 hp) and only weighs 144 lbs more. The short tracks they, Top Gear and Fifth Gear, are running them on would favor the GT-R more, less room for the 911 to stretch its legs and show off its speed. Nissan has already said that the GT-R is geared more for acceleration then top end.

I am sure both Top Gear and Fifth Gear got there GT-Rs straight from Nissan, meaning Nissan can do what they want to them before they get to Top Gear or Fifth Gear. They are clearly taking the limiter off, since it is limited to 180 kmph or 111 mph from Japan and 250 kmph or 156 mph in the US. Also, there are large differences in dyno numbers for the GT-Rs that are being dynoed. So now there are rumors that the cars are being tuned differently, or quality control for building them is horrible.

If Walter Rohrl ran the car around, he could have gone faster in the GT-R, but likewise faster in the 911 and GT2. They are saying that on the same day, an engineer who happens to be an expert on The Ring ran 7:54 in the GT-R, 7:38 in a 911 Turbo, and 7:34 in a 911 GT2.

"Achleitner says Porsche took a standard GT-R, running on regular road tyres, and ran it around the Nurburgring within two hours of its own cars, on the same day with exactly the same weather conditions."

@Cashmoney

While I find your analysis quite logical, there are still a few flaws in it. For starters, you forgot to mention that aerodynamics (including wheelbase measurement) also plays an important role in cornering and high speed. Anyway, the porshe wins that one as well, but there are more things to point out...

If you had read the June 2008, Vol.60, No.6 edition of Motortrend magazine, you would have so much of a better understanding as to how the Nissan can perform as good as it does. They tested the GTR at the EL TORO MARINE STATION to understand how a 4800 pound car could deliver such great performance.

-The Nissan GTR has very short gearing, and shifts lightening fast as well; torque is uninterupted when shifting from one gear to another (0.2 second to shift). It uses an advanced dual-clutch 6-speed if I remember correctly. And lets not forget its great traction control thanks in part to its AWD.

For example, the Z06 hits 60mph in first gear, but uses a tremec 6-speed tranny with 3 very tall gears.

-Also, when it was tested on the Dynojet, it was clear that the GTR had around 500hp instead of 480hp.

-As for its handling, it has low profile tires, state-of-the-art split drive shaft, and technologically advanced AWD which makes for excellent weight distribution.

The Article in Motortrend magazine vol.60, June 2008, of which my facts where attained from is called GodzillaUnleashed!

Thanks for reading...sorry its so long :) @cashmoney

The Nurburgring version of the car was the Spec-V (with almost 200 more hp)... there's been a couple articles about it from folks that were at the track when it was running but Nissan hasn't done anything to dissuade folks from believing what they will.

Personally, if I bought a GTR and found out they'd played that bait and switch on me I'd be really pissed, though the GTR is still a very solid performer.

i'll take the GT-R... supercar performance for half the cost!!!

i like porsche, but they are priced way to high... anyone empty their wallet to get an oil change with those dry sumps?

you all know what im going to say. 3.2 0-60 from 480 hp and 4000 pound car is VERY hard to believe. MODDED? i think so.

One interesting experiment anyone can do on their own to get a 'reality check' regarding the V-Spec level of performance the Nurburgring GTR put down is to compare the GTR vs. ZR1 final straight run. Get the two Youtube vid's staged at the same point at the end of the last corner and start them at the same time.

This section is a top speed, all power sprint to the start/finish... and the laws of physics ABSOLUTELY preclude a 4000 lb, 500hp gtr from matching at 650hp, 3300lb ZR1 in that section. There's no handling involved, no tire issues, it's pedal down and go. Yet the Nurburgring GTR stays right with the ZR1, pulling off levels of straight line acceleration that are simply not possible with the base model. However... that performance is quite possible with the monster numbers the V-Spec is going to be laying down.

You iknow, all one has to do is watch the video of the GTR and the ZR1 on the long back straight at the 'ring to know Nissan CHEATED> The GTR STAYS EVEN with the ZR1 in what is essentially a drag race. Every test done shows even a Z06 will walk away from a GTR in a straight line, yet the GTR manages to stay even with a ZR1.

Now please, since I must be too stupid to comprehend this, would someone with knowledge of the GTR explain how this is possible? We're in a straight line, so handling & cornering have nothing to do with it. The cars are already moving so the AWD advantage is gone as traction is no longer an issue.

@ reality

It's hard to refute your argument. In fact, that exact video is what has sparked many automotive journalists into questioning the cars Nissan is feeding them. Those of you that aren't still popping zits will remember Toyota initially did this with their last gen Supra however quickly stopped when eyebrows were being raised. I've been a fan of the GT-R for ages, but I'm not naive to believe a 480hp 4000lb AWD car car run neck & neck in a roll-on drag race with a 640hp RWD car. In fact, take a look at some 0 - 150 mph drags in current magazines; the GT-R gets waxed by not only by the Z06 & is only a fraction faster than the 430hp 'base' Vette. But hey it can equal the ZR1 on the long N'ring straights. Okay.....

Some quick Googling shows the Z06 traps about 5 - 8 mph higher than the GT-R in the 1/4 mile (even by Motor Trends numbers).

Videos confirm the GT-R running alongside a 640HP ZR1 on the long 'ring straight.

Enough evidence has been made for everyone to draw their own conclusions.

/CLOSE THREAD

A lot of the comments are just hating on the Nissan, for exactly that reason...it's a Nissan. I'm interested to see whether it's modded, but if I bought a GTR it wouldn't be because of its Nurburgring time. It has already established itself as a great performance car and I'd be using it on the street. Sure, everyone loves a Porsche, but actually right now a GTR would get you more stares. Here in San Diego there are Porsches, Corvettes, BMW M3s, etc. all over the place. There aren't GTRs so that in itself makes it a desireable car, at least short term. New toy syndrome that will get you laid downtown...haha. If Nissan cheated, I'm sure they're not the only one. I'm sure you can take any manufacturer and they are tweaking their cars even slightly for every test. Noone wants to lose so they do whatever it takes. I wouldn't be surprised if the Corvette ZR-1 wasn't "modified." There are many magazine tests where the "donated" car comes complete with a team of mechanics who hover over the car and under the hood up until the very test. I wonder if they're there to make sure the car stays stock or their afraid the car might not start.

Until a private interest takes dealership-purchased vehicles and runs them on the same day within a few minutes of each other, nobody can claim either lap time was done in a stock car. I don't believe the GM engineers any more than the nissan.

Does anyone have any independently-published material to reference?

@ whatbrakes

Why wouldn't you believe GM? The HP of the ZR1 coupled with its weight, drivetrain layout, brakes and suspension are consistent with the times it runs. Nissan's aren't.

It's also funny to read the GM press release for the ZR1 'ring time. They made very sure to be explicit in what "stock" means. They SPECIFICALLY mentioned the engine was stock, it was on pump gas, the tires were stock, the ride height and even suspension alignment settings were stock. All Nissan stated was "the GTR is production" and that's it. It's like GM was taking a swipe at Nissans VAGUE description of the specs of their 'ring car by making sure there were NO DOUBTS as to the configuration of the ZR1 that GM ran.

And, as mentioned, seeing a GTR running neck & neck with a ZR1 should dispel any questions about who's cheating. Can you explain the video evidence that shows this? Or did you conveniently skip over those posts.

Nobody is hating on the Nissan. Its a damn fine car. On a different course(s), the Nissan would probably outgun the ZR-1. Fast as hell acceleration and brutal corner exit speeds are what AWD is all about. BUT, this is the 'ring we're talking about. Those two straights are well over 2 miles long combined. So a 3300-ish pound 630hp car SHOULD walk a 480hp 3800 pound car, right? Maybe track temps? BTW, a GTR would stomp on a base vette, but thats just me. I dont really want to search for facts to back that up, but i'm almost certain it would.

Zist ist da truthh. Vee at Porche neve told zee lie eva! Our istory is clean anz pure!

Every test of the Nissan's performance that I have seen, that is worth considering, backs up Nissan's claims. But you know how it is, if Porche and others don't start saying something against the GT-R we might start believing it is a superior performer.

Oh yea, since we all went off track talking about ZR-1 vs GT-R. I'd like to point out that Porshe is the crybaby of the racing world. Guess who got the BMW M3-GTR and Japan's very own "Godzilla" R32 GTR banned from motor-sports? When you can't win, make it so the competitors get stacked with so many weight/power penalties that they can't even be competitive anymore. Riiiight...

@ Mike M

My own personal observations don't show the Nissan to be much of an attention grabber, though this probably doesn't bother Nissan very much. Two weeks ago some friends & I were sitting on at a patio on Robson Street, Vancouver's 'hippest' street where everyone wants to be seen. Directly across the street from us sat a white Lotus Esprit. I don't know what year it was but it looked like an early S4 (1993-ish). The Hummer limo that was parked right behind the Lotus pulls away & wouldn't you guess what pulls in? Yep, a silver Washington State registered new GT-R. Being the only car guy at the table, I took notice right away. I made mention of it but none of the other guys seemed to care & the ladies well they were admiring the "James Bond car" as they called it.

In the next 2 hours (& plenty of bevies later), the Lotus must have garnered at least 3 dozen cell phone camera shots. Young people, older people, kids, all stopped to gawk & snap pics. TWO groups of guys stopped to look at the Nissan. TWO! No one else battered an eye.

All I can say is DUH.

Of course they sent in a souped up model. I am sure every media outlet got a souped up model...it is very easy for them to increase the turbo boost.

Makes for great marketing.

I like turtles

I also think the GT-R is an outstanding car... so when I say the Nurburgring times are bogus I'm not hating on the GT-R at all, but on Nissan's gamesmanship.

I think they were feeling some pressure to build the marketing hype, and the numbers they threw out were sure to do that.

Now that real GT-R's are on the road (and track), we're seeing that while their performance is really awesome... it's not in Z06 territory much less ZR1 territory (or GT2 territory). Not a slam on the Nissan as much as an indicator of what Chevy and Porsche have put on the road for us to salivate over.

I guess this is enough to generate a nice discussion battle. From what I read and what Nissan promotes, they say each of their transmission is configured differently to each engine because the engines are hand built. To me that sounds like depending on the day and time and the conditions one GT-R might have 480 HP and the other one might have 500 HP or on a very bad day 430 HP as to opposed to a very good day 520 HP. In other words, not very consistent, enough inconsistency to tell a consumer when they come back and say, "hey my GT-R only did 0-60 on the track in only 4.5 secs" What gives? Dealer responds, oh sorry, it must have been built on a Monday. There are so many factors that could affect the numbers for the Ring, if I'm not mistaken, GT-R is a TWIN Turbo 3.7 liter engine, from my experiences TURBO's are quite dependent on the weather, yes the law's of physics does go against how the GT-R can get those numbers. I am a fan of the GT-R, however this thread is about obtaining lap times. It's enough for me to say, please take 4 GT-R's, same driver, same day and average the lap times.

While your comments about the build quality seem to ring true VWGTI, there is some other factors you have left out with regards to the comparison. For starters, both the 911 Turbo and 911 GT2 use a 3.6L twin turbo engine. The GT-R uses a 3.8L twin turbo. The cars were all ran within 2 hours of each other. The times with the Porsches were consistent with what they have put down before, meaning the weather was good.

Now maybe the GT-R that Nissan ran had better weather conditions that do to help it (colder air temperature being the big one). If that was the case, then the Porsches should be able to shave time off, roughly 9 seconds going be the GT-Rs time, on that same day. The Porsches however, have been around The Ring a lot of times before, and the times are consistent. This means, there is most likely no room for improvement do to weather conditions. So that argument is more or less thrown out do to Porsches many, consistent lap times around The Ring.

The question now is how much tweaking and tuning has Nissan done to the GT-Rs going out to the track/for reviews compared to production versions. And if the build quality is the varied, then they are hand picking the ones going to the track and out for reviews. That also means that they are opening themselves up for a lawsuit do to the huge variation in build quality. And if build quality is truly that varied, it is not a well built production car then.

To put down the times the ring GT-R put down requires something a bit beyond tweaking. Racing tires would make a big difference but would not explain the blazing straight line performance. There are only two things that could provide that level of acceleration... 200 more ponies (at least) or more than a thousand pounds less weight... or some combination of the two.

Look at the performance numbers the Dodge Challenger is putting down... mid-high 13's seem to be the consensus... pathetic... why? Because the thing is a huge fat pig of a car. 4000lbs is a heavy car, and it's a miracle that Nissan is getting the performance they are out of it.

@Dave K
@Cashmoney
@Avatar
@Vtfo0lio
@Arthur Pappas
@Reality
@Whatbrakes
...@and everyone else but Mainly @cashmoney

While I find your analysis quite logical, there are still a few flaws in it. For starters, you forgot to mention that aerodynamics (including wheelbase measurement) also plays an important role in cornering and high speed. Anyway, the porshe wins that one as well, but there are more things to point out...

If you had read the June 2008, Vol.60, No.6 edition of Motortrend magazine, you would have so much of a better understanding as to how the Nissan can perform as good as it does. They tested the GTR at the EL TORO MARINE STATION to understand how a 4800 pound car could deliver such great performance.

-The Nissan GTR has very short gearing, and shifts lightening fast as well; torque is uninterupted when shifting from one gear to another (0.2 second to shift). It uses an advanced dual-clutch 6-speed if I remember correctly. And lets not forget its great traction control thanks in part to its AWD.

For example, the Z06 hits 60mph in first gear, but uses a tremec 6-speed tranny with 3 very tall gears.

-Also, when it was tested on the Dynojet, it was clear that the GTR had around 500hp instead of 480hp.

-As for its handling, it has low profile tires, state-of-the-art split drive shaft, and technologically advanced AWD which makes for excellent weight distribution.

The Article in Motortrend magazine vol.60, June 2008, of which my facts where attained from is called GodzillaUnleashed!

Thanks for reading...sorry its so long :)

Please don't criticize me for this, but I thought it was worth mentioning...

Its unfortunate that while many super cars are running around the Nurburgring, the Ford GT is out of the picture. Ford has never put (or even spoken of) their Ford GT on Nurburgring for a competetive time against the ZR1, ACR, or the GTR. Because of that, I ran around the ring (In Gran Turismo 4) in a stock 2005 Ford GT on high profile Sport tires and MT(to make it as fair as possible) and set a time of 7 minutes and 27 seconds. Don't worry; there wasn't nothin' funny goin' on and I drove as realistically and smooth as possible... GT4 is a Serious Driving Simulation Game.
The Ford GT has:
550hp, 500Ib-ft of torque, 0-60 in 3.2 sec Top Speed: 205+mph

The ring wasn't a popular test track for US auto manufacturers when the Ford GT was released. Now that it is you would be hard pressed to find Ford giving out a GT for testing when they are hurting for money and every single one of the GT's are pre-sold. Someone will have to borrow one from a current owner.

And please, Gran Turismo is a terrible comparison to use. Its not a simulator, its just a game. If you want to see just how far from reality it is, there is a Top Gear episode that shows this point all to well.

Well there is something funny going on... ok me and a friend have been putting together a spreadsheet that has a lot of calculated 0-60 times on it. 99 percent of the cars on there have accurate times now thanks to a very advanced computer program and a good base car to run each time off of. Well According to the program the GTR can only get to 60 mph due to its gearing in 5.6 seconds.. for some reason its the only car on our list that doesnt have a really good and well unbiased 1/4 mile testing. Personally I think its nearly impossible to even get a GT-R for less then 120k dollars because of dealer markup so really for such a boring unfortable car its a lot of money. but at least nissan is trying.

@saheed...

there's no doubt that Nissan has an awesome design for handling... but none of that magic can affect straight line performance at speed. AWD will get the GTR off the line quick, but is actually an impediment at high speed. Real world quarter times for the GTR range from mid high 12's to low 13's, which are completely realistic given the weight of the car. Even more telling are the trap times which are 7+ mph slower than the Z06. In a straight line the GT-R is no match for a Z06 much less a ZR1... no gearing is going to help that even a bit... those cars will run away from the GT-R on the kind of straight that the ring finishes with.

As I said... cool car that I'd love to own, but not the car they took round the ring.

Amien couldn't have said it better -

Okay, Here's what happened:-

1)The GTR hands Porsche it's ass on a platter.
2)Porsche decideds to best the GTR with its upcoming models.
3)They realize that they have come to a point where they would have to sacrifice some of the things that make a Porsche a Porsche in order to gain performance beyond said point. This also means (omg!) spending more money on their product thereby reducing the huge mark-up Porsche makes on each sale.
4)Not willing to compromise, They fail to match the performance standard.
5)Cry foul about Nissan's lap times.

Porsche does not dare pick on the giants that are Corvette and the Viper for fear of upsetting their American market as both these cars are iconic.
Instead, they decide to bully the little kid (Nissan).

Finally, I can't believe im saying this, but Porsche, learn something from the Americans. They have undoubtedly earned my respect by standing up to a challenge, unlike you.

@:( :
Thanks for the tip bro. And one reason I trust GT4 is because I drove the GTR around the ring in 7 minutes and 29 seconds at my best. It was the 450hp Tokyo concept, but I boosted output to 483hp and hooked up medium compound sports tires. (to be fair, the concept had a 7-speed, although its top speed was the same as the production GTR)

@Dave K
It is true that AWD is no good with top speed and can actually be a disadvantage, but the GTR's top speed is redline limited meaning that it is in it's power band and still has plenty of torque (mostly thanks to twin turboing) at lower at lower RPM to help it reach top speed VERY fast with it's short gearing. And lets not forget that there is no interruptance of torque during shifting, where as the ZR1 shifts much slower and has taller gearing (despite being closer ratio than the Z06), thus giving the GTR time to catch up each time it (ZR1) shifts. I admitt that the GTR's time around the ring is suspicious, but the facts can still be kinda trustworthy:)

@Dave K and
@:( :

@:( :
Thanks for the tip bro. And one reason I trust GT4 is because I drove the GTR around the ring in 7 minutes and 29 seconds at my best. It was the 450hp Tokyo concept, but I boosted output to 483hp and hooked up medium compound sports tires. (to be fair, the concept had a 7-speed, although its top speed was the same as the production GTR)

@Dave K
It is true that AWD is no good with top speed and can actually be a disadvantage, but the GTR's top speed is redline limited meaning that it is in it's power band and still has plenty of torque (mostly thanks to twin turboing) at lower at lower RPM to help it reach top speed VERY fast with it's short gearing. And lets not forget that there is no interruptance of torque during shifting, where as the ZR1 shifts much slower and has taller gearing (despite being closer ratio than the Z06), thus giving the GTR time to catch up each time it (ZR1) shifts. I admitt that the GTR's time around the ring is suspicious, but the facts can still be kinda trustworthy:)

Ignore chassis dyno results. Those can be all over the map to begin with, and dyno operators can change settings in 15 seconds that will give you an extra 200 hp on paper, and some shops that do dyno tunes are doing exactly that.

As far as the GTR goes, I have thought from the beginning that something didn't add up. The numbers this car was running on the Ring were faster than much more powerful and lighter exotics. I know that AWD and the electronics make it handle better, but still. You can't overcome the laws of physics. And I haven't seen the video, but if the GTR that Nissan ran at the track can pace a ZR1 on a straight from a roll, then you KNOW it's BS.

It's just not possible that the GTR would come anywhere close to keeping up with the ZR1 in a straight line with 130 less HP and 700 pounds more weight.

Couple of quick things that i'd like to point out from engineering 101. Torque is the most important factor in determining acceleration ie this means that a car that is capable of putting down the most amount of 'force' through its tires from a dead start is going to win everytime. In this case the GTR which is under rated at the flywheel from Nissan is going to be faster than most cars.

HP is the ability to overcome drag and continue to accelerate in the face of that drag. In this case the GRT is very effecient at .27 most other super cars place styling over function. So it is not impossible to imagine that the GTR is still a very capable machine.

Car and Driver had a recent articIe talking about the power differences between preproduction GTR's and production cars. The prepfoduction cars put out substantially more power than production vehicles.

So I say all this to say that it is most probable that Nissan DID fudge those numbers knowing a production car would not be as fast, however there is no way that i will believe a 25sec difference between cars. That is an eternity in the world of racing. Porchse isn't telling the whole story here and neither is Nissan. Its still safe to say though that for the money there is NOTHING that comes close to a GTR; it has clearly removed the Vette from this position.

Well it's really area under the curve... which is a combination of torque and gearing (you pick your gearing to optimize area under the curve).

There's no doubt that the GT-R has solid acceleration... though again... there's a big discrepancy between pre-production GT-R's and as-delivered units. Pre-production units were trapping low 120's (comparable to the Z06), which is impossible given the virtually identical claimed power and significantly higher weight. Production GT-R's are trapping in the mid 110's, which is exactly where the car should be given the power and weight.

A number of real life straight line comparisons of the Z06 vs. production GT-R's clearly show the Z06 walking away from the GT-R through the entire acceleration curve... which again is to be expected (but not what the pre-production GT-R's were doing.

Heck there are even street racing vid's showing stock vs. stock and the Z06 gracefully walks away every time. The GT-R is a fantastic car, and gets a huge practicality bonus that would make it the best bang for the buck all around sports car.. if you could get one for sticker... which you can't (even at the 7k increased number), but the 'as delivered' GT-R probably IS close to 25 seconds slower round the ring than their 'ringer' pre-production unit, which is pretty much where the laws of physics would put it all else being equal.

The Z06 can be driven off of a lot within 30 miles of most of the residents of the US, for well under sticker (there's one in Rochester I saw two weeks ago for $63k)- so when it comes to sports car bang for the buck in a car that any of us could actually own (if we were willing to cough up the grand a month payment), the Z06 is still king of the hill imo.

But... given the choice between the GT-R and the Z06... I'd choose the Viper ACR...

what... that's not one of the choices? ;-)

@ JuTu

Dude, you shouldn't be teaching Engineering 101, that's for sure. In fact you need to be a student in that class.

And everyone keeps saying that the GTR is underrated on power. I'm telling you, you can't compare chassis dyno results to each other, much less to the figures published for engines on an engine dyno. If you knew how these pieces of equipment operated, you's understand that.

It's still a Datsun....

But really I can see how Porsche can say a "stock", as in off the lot, GTR isn't nearlly as fast as tested by Nissan...

On the same token, look at a Dodge Viper. In stock form it works fine. Take it to the drag strip and it you'd think it'd do better than most magazines report. Well the truth is, it will. Outfiting it with drag slick and you drop more than a second off the quarter mile. Now it's not "road" legal, but it certainly has the ability to put the power to the pavement.

End the end it is all about the tuning and tweaking.

Subaru STi's come with Potenza RE050 tires from the factory, which have a tread wear life of like 180... Yeah, I guess if I could afford the up keep a new set of tires every 10k miles would be okay... Or I could put something a tad be less sticky and get 20k+ miles out of it...

If you own a high horsepower car you just get used to new rubber every 10-15k miles. I've been doing on my summer toy for a decade. You COULD buy tires with longer life but that's not really the point is it?

Wow, way to much talk on this.

Of COURSE Porsche says its impossible for the GT-R to do it, they are a COMPETITOR. I'm surprised they even said Nissan did it within 8 minutes, or within a lifetime for that matter. Porsche isn't giving Nissan a fair shot here, and Nissan probably did wrangle with the numbers some.

I think even GM did some of that with the ZR1, as there isn't anyone keeping them from making their own numbers.

All in all, this jabber is worthless, move along.

JuJu:

You don't 'accidentally' make a car with 130 more horsepower AND 700 pounds less weight. While a car rated at 480hp may not have EXACTLY 480hp, you can bet really, REALLY good money it doesn't have 610hp unless someone did it on purpose (spending money).

A car geared for acceleration is not going to fare well against a car geared for top end. The 0.3 seconds saved in one shift down a long straight stetch isn't going to offset the advantages of the ZR-1. Just start multiplying out force and mass. It isn't that hard.