No surprise here. GM is next.

Yeah pal, you really want our $ to go down the toilet aye?

Toyota had the number one slot all for about one day. Toyota doesn't make the same products they use to make. Now they are doing what GM did in the past, sell crappy cars with a name plate.

Too many people, including auto mag writers, have made these same comments about Toyota.

Personally, I do not think that is a big deal for Ford. What I mean, is that Ford is selling off its luxury divisions, focusing on improving their model line, and being attentive to their core business. Ford's quality is up per JD Power and Consumer Reports and they have sales success with its Mustang, F150, Fusion, and Focus and Edge. They are not out of the woods yet, but I definitely see better products from Ford. Fleet sales are always a low profit margin move and it devaluates the brand.

Toyota's growth has been due to rebates on the Tundra and continued brand loyalty. Their goal is to balance high levels of quality with increased production. That has been problematic of late, but Toyota is adept in improving quality control.

Personally, I do not think that is a big deal for Ford. What I mean, is that Ford is selling off its luxury divisions, focusing on improving their model line, and being attentive to their core business. Ford's quality is up per JD Power and Consumer Reports and they have sales success with its Mustang, F150, Fusion, and Focus and Edge. They are not out of the woods yet, but I definitely see better products from Ford. Fleet sales are always a low profit margin move and it devaluates the brand.

Toyota's growth has been due to rebates on the Tundra and continued brand loyalty. Their goal is to balance high levels of quality with increased production. That has been problematic of late, but Toyota is adept in improving quality control.

Ehh, I'm sure it really suprises me. If you think that it takes a good 5-10 years to really hurt a companies reputation then this was put into motion probably before 2000. The mid-late 90's Ford cars didn't have the best repair records (well not to many major defects at least), while Toyota had/was building on very good overall reliability. That's been carrying over and this is what it has lead to. If Ford pulls its act together then in a couple years they will come back ahead of Toyota. Especially if Toyota fumbles on quality, creativity, or even the whole hybrid thing.

Hey as long as GM or Toyota are out selling Honda I'm happy. (Of course as many Hondas as I see on the road you wouldn't think it.)

fords problem is its europe division is thriving with great products [focus,fiesta,mondeo,s-max,c-max,galaxy and upcoming kuga]while ford usa sits there ignoring thembeacuse there all scared they will lose there jobs to europe ford firstly needs a design revoution and should chuck out is fusion and replace with mondeo take europes focus and there kuga then we might see a turnaround

The big 3 have no cars that get good FE other than the escape. I expect more of the same in 2008, especially when gas hits $4 in the summer.

"mf:
The big 3 have no cars that get good FE other than the escape. I expect more of the same in 2008, especially when gas hits $4 in the summer."

1+1=3....See, I can spam stupidity too.

"Yeah pal, you really want our $ to go down the toilet aye?" - Andrew

Did you pass high school economics? The USD is going down the toilet for many reasons (Bush's (lack of a) fiscal policy?), but it's not because domestic autos are the crappiest vehicles you can buy.

"Ford's quality is up per JD Power and Consumer Reports" - longdxcommuter

Yeah, INITIAL quality. They also have no new designs (a la over hyped Malibu and CTS). Refer to my answer below.

"If Ford pulls its act together then in a couple years they will come back ahead of Toyota." - Brian

Sorry pal, Toyota's built its reputation over the last 20 years. And in that 20 years the gap in quality/resale between Toyota and Ford has grown. Simply look up a 10 and 5 year old Camry vs. a Taurus. Check their prices and go test drive them. Look at the interior and exterior style. There's a reason people buy Toyota (& Honda). If Ford matched the positive attributes TODAY (which they can't), it would still take them 10 years to have a reputation like Toyota or Honda.

"Ford's quality is up per JD Power and Consumer Reports" - longdxcommuter

Yeah, INITIAL quality. They also have no new designs (a la over hyped Malibu and CTS). Refer to my answer below.

Ummm..... those are GM vehicles; not Ford.

@ Noya,
[/B]"Did you pass high school economics? The USD is going down the toilet for many reasons (Bush's (lack of a) fiscal policy?), but it's not because domestic autos are the crappiest vehicles you can buy. "[/B]

Yes your statement is true about Bush's policies but my statement is also true. When you purchase a car made by Honda, Toyota, VW, etc, the money is ultimately going back to their home country. In Toyota and Honda's case it is going back to Japan. VW is going back to Germany. When you buy GM or Ford it is staying here in the States. You buy our made products, you help our country. The only reason Honda and Toyota make and assembly cars here in the states is it is cheaper for them and they avoid having to pay import taxes and tariffs.

That is simplistic as hell.
Nothing is stopping you from buying stock in any of those companies overseas and reap the profits.
What the hell good does money going to GM and Ford have to do with me?
I don't get any of it? Some overpaid union hacks get some, some of it goes to overpaid CEO's, so what?
If you buy cars based soley on where the money goes, well, thats your problem.
I buy the best car for the money at the time I need a car. I don't care who makes it, but thats what I buy.
The customers that buy my companies product do the same and that makes us stay sharp and competitive.

If I buy a Honda, well, it paid the guy working on the assembly line in Ohio. The fact that some fata$$ CEO in Detroit didn't get his share hardly keeps me awake at night.

Ford's initial quality has been rising considerably, and even their long term quality has been rising, albeit not leaps and bounds. I think Ford is doing a reasonably good job of re-shaping its company and product lines. I would agree though, the European models are much more exciting.

To Quote Andrew:

"Now they (Toyota) are doing what GM did in the past, sell crappy cars with a name plate."

It's hard not to chuckle at this comment - there's virtually no aspect of that statement which is even remotely true. Toyota, as a company, and almost no matter how you look at it, has very little in resemblance to GM, or anything GM has done in the past 20 years. Toyota is a very different company than GM, from the Board to the dealership. For example, look at the board composition for most of the American car companies - lots of people with MBA`s from Harvard, who all have vast amounts of experience running companies that have nothing to do with Automobiles. Yes, Toyota (and Honda) have people like that too, but look closely and you`ll see that the boards are comprised of people that you might actually want serving on the board of a car company.. People like... engineers who used to design.... CARS! This is just one example, but there`s a myriad of things like this that make the two companies very very different from the top down.

As far as selling 'crappy' cars...? Last time I checked the vast majority of Toyota's models were far from crappy. Most European and N. American models of Toyota consistent do well in almost any way you can measure it. Granted, Toyota's line up isn'tthe most exciting lineup (its awfully hard to get excited about a corolla), but in almost any other measure Toyotas are amongst the best consumer cars you can buy. Im not a huge fan of toyota myself, but I do appreciate they make very good cars no matter how you look at it.

"I buy the best car for the money at the time I need a car. I don't care who makes it, but thats what I buy."

Talk about simplistic. I guess that attitude is okay ... if you don't pay any taxes.

I should buy a lower quality car from GM or Ford rather than a better product from Toyota or Honda because GM and Ford are American companies???

I want the American car companies to make the best cars in the world, but they won't get that way if they don't have to compete and we reward mediocrity. That is why i am opposed to protectionism. Let Ford and GM compete with the rest of the world fairly. That will make them better or go broke.

What the heck do taxes have to do with what car I buy?
I pay taxes and work like most other people, the difference with me is I don't get some sort of twisted patriotic stiffy out of buying cars from Ford, Chrysler, or Chevy, and frankly thats all the domestic supports have to stand on.

Amen, zippy.

Well said!

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that people should blindly buy american. (I've owned domestics and imports.) I'm as disappointed as anyone that american made vehicles aren't always a clearly superior choice. (They should _always_ be.) That said, I also understand that unemployed and even under-employed americans have an ever-increasing selection of government programs to tap into, which is partially why many of us never see almost half of the money we earn. If an american product is even a close second, then you should consider the benefit of employing other tax payers.

Of course, I also understand that not only is that benefit hard to quantify, but most people are way to self-centered to worry about things like that anyway.

ok Rod, that makes more sense to me anyway.
I tell you what, in 3 years the wifes car will be ready for replacement and if the Malibu is as good as they claim it will be, we will consider it. But long term reliablility will have to be there.

Toyota has been building better quality products for close to 30 years not 20. I have an 83 Toyota Supra and I remember that car was far superior to any domestic vehicle. I still own it and it still runs and the paint is still like new.

If you think Toyota is doing a worse job now and their quality is slipping that may be true and part of the reason is from building more vehicles in North America. The Japanese build Toyota is superior to a NA built one. But given they still have the highest customer return rate of any manufacturer they will continue to grow faster than any other manufacturer. That is the key! Customer Loyalty and their quality is still better than the Domestics no matter how much they have slipped so far. If that trend continues though they will be in trouble in the next 10 years.

@Zippy:

I agree that I will buy the best car for my money. Until recently, the best cars that I have owned have been 3 Hondas. 1 Subaru, and 1 Mitsubishi. I would like to see Ford pull out of this slump, not because I am blindly patriotic, but so that there is still some form of viable American industry. I make purchasing decisions based on a variety of sources to include: enthusiast magazines (Autoweek, C & D, R & T, etc), edmunds.com, this forum, Consumer Reports, etc. The best thing that could happen to American car companies is the threat of reliable cars from Japan, Korea, and other countries. It forces them to make better cars and not stand on their laurels/history. I think that I would consider American cars now is a true test of how far they have come in the past 20 years.

@Sabby

You're correct, you can spam stupidity, but your spam is a singular instance of stupidity, that is not in anyway duplicating something that I have done.

@others
Buying american you're just as likely to be employing a mexican or canadian, as you are to be employing an american.

Buying from toyota ,honda, or nissan, you're just as likely to be employing an american as you are a japanese person.

This whole idea that buying american makes you american is just more ignorant babble from the drones that read this website. Its complete garbage.

Beyond all of that, the really crappy thing our beloved big 3 do, is they make better cars in other parts of the world than they do right here in the good ol usa. So all of you red white and blue diehard patriots, you can put that in your tail pipe and smoke it.

You might want to spend too much for your crappy malibu that gets horrible gas mileage and breaks down in 3 years, all the while watching your resale go down the toilet but the rest of us smart people do not. So you can call me names, or say i'm spamming something stupid(which really just means say something you don't like). That is fine. All the while i'll be laughing my butt off while you're on your 3rd new american car, that has now caught up to my 10 year old car in technology and fuel economy.

@ Rod

Now were bashing people as to when they buy cars? Way to get off topic.

FYI: Most people do not buy a new car when they don't need one. They buy one when their old one dies, when they move, when their kid turns 16, etc.

Toyota got in the Number 2 spot because they have great customer loyalty by providing a diverse reliable line of products; some of which are in the top of their field.

Ford and Chevy make great trucks, they always have. However, if you ever do get a chance to get into the new Tundra, the competition leaves much do be desired.

@Thrawn Dougal,

I have owned all kinds of cars. The worst being an '07 MB ML350 and the best being a 94 Civic Coupe. But my family has always purchased GM, mostly Chevys and I can say they have been very reilable. No problems what so ever. In fact my family still has a 87 Chevy Eurosport....

Will I buy a Chevy in the future.. maybe... or I might buy a Saturn. It doesn't matter. I know that GM is working hard to keep their spot in the market, so is Ford.

Usually if you are not being picked on, you slack off... GM and Ford have been put on notice, they are working to correct there short comings.

We can blame unions for part of the problem (mostly all) but then "those" are the kind of Americans that need protection from a mafia type organizations.

As to the comments about GM and Ford make better products outside of the US well you are right. They do becuase they have people that will actually purchase there cars oversea, just like we buy foreign cars here.

What is all of this mumbo jumbo about buying american supporting the american economy and buying foreign supporting a foreign economy? What a bunch of brainwashed morons you are. Most Toyota cars in the US are *gasp* built in US factories, supporting US workers! Wow! I hope i didn't just totally blow your minds with that fact (it doesn't look like it would be hard with all of the protectionist crap you are all spewing) Have any of you even taken economics in your lifetime or do you just listen to the crazy old-fashioned unionists who are ruining the car industry with their outrageous demands and attempts at protecting people from "big business" that is totally unnecessary - if that socialist crap is what you want move to europe.

American cars are pieces of crap, sure they are improving, but my cousin drove here in her brand new ford and it broke down while here, only 3 months old, wouldnt even start, took a week to order the replacement part and about 1000$ later, that isn't even INITIAL quality, more or less an indication of where it will be in a couple years. My 12 year old 1996 ES300 is more stable than a brand new ford, that is saying something about toyota's quality control. My car just purrs along as if it were still brand new. That is why toyota is moving upward and taking sales from the other major companies, because they have a very well established and well known tradition of quality, i am expecting to get 300,000 out of it before i buy a new car, that is just never going to happen with a ford or GM.

I'm sure glad you are all so excited about this. But I don't want to hear one word out of any of you about outsourcing jobs...

Because YOU are the ones who are sending the jobs overseas.

longdxcommuter makes some fantastic points

@ Andrew: The profit Toyota makes doesn't all go to some mysterious japanese vault. It ends up being spent on capital expendatures at Toyota facilities around the world. Toyota investors (not all Japanese) get a portion as well. I hate it when people assume that cars by the big 3 are "all american". That is total horse shit. The Ford fusion is assembled in Mexico with parts that are from the U.S., Canada, and Mexico. (possibly from Japan as well seeing as its a Mazda 6)

The dumbest thing you've said though is to imply that purchasing products made in the U.S. regardless of quality and overall value helps the U.S. Thats all total bull. If American's want to help their country continue to be the leader in innovation, R&D and quality they've got to demand the best of cars for the most cost-effective price. They're nothing like stiff competition to make people innovate.
THATS WHY THE US IS STILL AROUND AND THE SOVIET UNION ISN'T.

Prior to imports coming into the states, there was limited competition so the big 3 didn't bother making good cars. They got away with sloppy work. Now that sensible people aren't tricked into purchasing domestic "because its ALL AMERICAN", the big 3 realize that they need to kick it up a notch. And NOW, you're finally starting to see some cars that are well engineered.

@Angry

Before I get started, you make several good, unarguable points. Except...

"Before imports were around"... Imports were ALWAYS a part of the american car market. They just never sold well before roughly 1970. because...

"the big 3 didn't bother making good cars". American cars were decidedly better than their foreign competition at mass-sex-appeal, creature-comforts, durability and even reliability until the 70's. We used big heavy equipment that lasted seemingly forever, it was a complicated amalgam of reasons (fuel economy and emmissions regulations, corporate greed and short-sightedness, anti-american sentiment among young people and probably a new emphasis on handling during the period most US spec cars couldn't accelerate out of their own way) that drove US automakers into making crap cars (which they did for a long time, and haven't now for a while). Even during the early 1970s GM was held up with MB as making the best engineered cars. (Read some old SAE books, they'll support me on this).

Regardless, you're right about the economics... Keep up the intelligent work...

I think the Dodge RAM, of the 90's (big rig style) was the last truck that got to the top right after launch, or a couple of years later.

Will this same car bring Chevy+GMC numbers to second spot? I'd love to see that. That's the challenge Americans need, if you ask me: do it right or die!

I have to tell you, I like this truck. I wish I needed one. The last one I felt like this was the Dodge RAM. It is this good.

BTW, love the comercials too. The best in years! lol.

Sphere, though the redesign of the Ram did significantly increase their sales, they didn't come anywhere close to unseating the Ford (number 1) or Chevy/GMC (number 2 separate, right now number 1 combined). The Tundra isn't close, either. What this article speaks to is that Toyota (group) sales have outsold Ford (group) sales.

This article's point:
GM sales 3,824,551
Toyota sales 2,620,826
Ford sales 2,502,015

Remember these are "group" so it's GM vs. Toyota, Scion & Lexus vs. Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Volvo & Land Rover

Your point
F-150/250/350 sales 690,589
Silverado sales 618,257
Ram sales 358,295
Sierra sales 208,243
Tundra sales 196,555

Toyota came very close to meeting their 200K sales goal, though it took 2500-5500 incentives to get them there.

Hope that clears some things up. (Source, wardsauto.com)

I agree that competition makes better competitors, but I don't agree with Toyota's commercials at all. They haven't changed the truck, they've made a copy-cat, boring, big truck (with a cheap looking interior even).

I think the Titan with it's (factory, not aftermarket) in-bed rails and the outside lock boxes were more "change" than this truck.

Was there an article on here about how Toyota had passed GM in global sales but then fell behind? Just wondering.

@Sphere:

No offense Sphere, but the older model RAM was actually just a cheap tin-can shaped in the form of a big-rig truck... it had some of the WORST crash safety ratings.
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=6

Where as the Toyota Tundra of the same time period had excellent crash ratings:
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=5

Which truck would you rather be in, in the event of an accident? =P
Subsequently, both companies did produce decently tough trucks though, so it's all good now! ;)

Well, I know GM gives huge discounts to contractors, that's no secret. The handyman working at my house just bought a brand new 2007 Sierra with close to 10k off retail price (he qualifies under a quite number of discounts - previous owner, rebates, incentives, etc.). Also you have to compare model year: 2007 models only apply. I guess I saw a Motor Trend article about that.

Also I think the Dodge RAM, in 1996, sold 400.000 units, 2 years after the "big rig" look was introduced, jumping from 4th place to first, IIRC. Did it sell more than Chevy or GMC? I don't know, maybe only if you combine the two GM brands.

And you can't argue with 380hp and the 6 speed transmission. It's a peach. I've read the reviews, this Tundra is delivering the goods, man. I've test driven (for fun, I guess), the 2006 F150, and the new Tundra. No comparison, the F150 engine sounds and performs COARSE. Like the old v8's of yore. All show, and no go. No the Tundra. That thing jumps ahead like there's no tomorrow.

I didn't say that GM doesn't incent, that's a given. Toyota usually doesn't. And when they do, they (almost) always reach their goals. The 2007 is the "classic", not the new truck, right?

The Ram has never been the #1 truck. A 2006 article in businessweek states "for the past 30 years the F-150 has been the nation's top-selling truck -- and the top-selling vehicle of any type for 25."

That would definitely be more than GMC, probably not more than Chevy, but it's difficult to find sales data more than 3 years old.

I could argue that no 1/2 ton needs 381 horsepower. I could argue that trucks don't need to go fast.

However, if a 1/2 ton does need to go fast, I would say you can't argue with 403 HP and a 6 speed. I would say you can't argue with the choice of diesel (HD). I would say you can't argue with having 3 extra choices in engines (including HD).

But I don't, I just say that a little extra power doesn't "change the truck", it's just more. Just like the size, it's just more. I have said it in other streams, the truck is fine, it's not earthshattering, it's not gamechanging, it's just more.

Fair enough points hater, hard to disagree. But imagine if there were only diesel trucks on the road? Being able to choose is good.

I still think there's some charisma about the Tundra, maybe it's just hype, I don't know. Hard to quantify.

And I love the commercial. Brings me a smile to my face everytime. All the others looks phony by comparison (The Ford speeding backwards, stopping the plane, the Chevy breaking walls...(WTF?)...the Tundra one's is full of engineer's toys. Amazes me everytime.