this is photoshop, meaning bullshit

I heard there are no engine mods in this Civic Si. Just ground effects, automatic Honda wiper blade - http://www.discounthonparts.com/honda-wiper-blade/ , stickers, dropped suspension (the ride's already firm on the Si), and a new exhaust (which will probably be too loud). There aren't too many people out there willing to drop $30K on a compact car to begin with. I don't those who are in the market for a $30K compact will buy a racy Civic over a comparably priced Audi A3 or BMW 1-series.

Nice, spoty looking car, pathetic engine, typical Honda....... Maybe they will learn how to put some torque out one day.

Nice, sporty looking car, pathetic engine, typical Honda....... Maybe they will learn how to put some torque out one day.

So, Honda finally puts out a decent looking coupe and they make their ultimate civic the ugly sedan???? Ugh!

I'ld like to see your reasoning behind calling this a pathetic engine. At nearly 100hp/litre and 94Nm/Litre, I'ld say it's quite a good engine. Admittedly it's not their best (f20c 125hp/litre and 100Nm/litre). But when you only measure things in total quantities you're never going to appreciate something of quality.

To give you something to compare to, the current 6 litre V8 produced by GM in Australia creates 414hp (69hp/litre, note that BMW can do this with a 4litre and Audi do it just fine with a 4.2litre) and 550Nm (92Nm/Litre). Not really awe inspiring...

Besides, if you really wanted more torque you would be driving a turbo deisel.

charlie, i would rather have torque! my friend has a 2005 S2000, nice rev but no acceleration power :-(

i have a ridgeline and still like it i think 255/260 torque; could use a nice V8 though

Charlie, The reason he is calling the engine pathetic is that it only puts out 139 ft lbs of torque, so basically unless you are pinning the tach needle to the red line acceleration is no better than a standard Civic. For that matter for $23k you can get a Mazda Speed 3, which enjoys among other things a much better interior, and a lot more power. If Honda thinks they can charge close to $30,000 for this it will have to square off against the Evo X RS, at which point the Honda becomes a sick joke. And to add insult to injury Honda actually has much more competitive Civic variants in other regions, For that matter the Engine in the RDX would be a nice fit if they wanted to make a Civic that actually was fast.

Under $30,000? Yeah, right!! With tax/extra features/destination charge and everything else added, I'd much rather get an Evolution IX or a WRX STi. Even if there's only gonna be 1000 in the US

People need to remember that Honda's philosophy is make as much power out their NA engines with resorting to forced induction. This comes at a price as there is a limit to how much horses you can get out small displacement engines. Honda's high rev vtec engines also suffer from a lack of low end torque so if you are used to driving vehicles with big block engine power, small high rev engines will leave you disappointed. In my opinion it all depends on your driving style. Some folks like to hear their engines screaming towards the redline while others like to feel the pull of a low-end torque motor. Honda still builds great sports cars by reducing vehicle weight and by improving handling( eg. Honda's Type R series ). Its just a shame that the U.S. is always kept out of the loop......

*Correction for comment above

"People need to remember that Honda's philosophy is to make as much power from their NA engines without resorting to forced induction."

Under $30k? You mean under $25k. Anyone who pays more than $2500 for that stuff is an idiot!

Remember, torque hungry ones: these things are light and meant for high RPMS anyway. Only a fool takes the car out of peak bhp on a turn, so proper downshifting is required.

As to building more torque: I've seen some pretty good results with tuning this engine so far. I remember one of Honda's old engines, I think it started at like 93 bhp and without forced induction people could get it up to 280 bhp. All high end, but top end tends to win races if its more than a basic drag. Even then, proper forced induction can make up for that lack of torque!

For under $30,000 I can pick up a used (possibly even new) Pontiac GTO with a 400 hp LS2 and a 6-speed. Far better interior, far better performance, and still decent gas mileage.

Sorry but Honda's aren't performance cars no matter how you slice it. Their Si model is still a whopping 15 second car in the quarter mile. Sure if you spend thousands modifying them you can make them fast. But I'd rather just start out with a car that is fast and make it faster.

And yes, 129 lb ft. of torque is pathetic. Horsepower per liter is not an indication of how good an engine is. Anyone can stick a cam in an engine that makes high horsepower at ridiculously high RPM. All it does is make the engine less responsive at RPMs that are used every day and lower your fuel economy.

Even car magazines when they reviewed the S2000 said that while it was a nice car, you had to be above 6-7000 RPM to get any kind of decent acceleration out of it. Not exactly street friendly. 120hp/liter is nice. But not if you can't use it unless then pedal is floored.

To be quite honest, Honda makes some of THE best engines out there. The civic is a quick fun car to drive, it is THE best economy car out there, and shouldnt be compared to cars that arent within its class, even though the handling is superb. Quite frankly theres a good reason why the Type- R's dont come to north america. Because theres to many morons here, who enjoy terrible engines (american) which dont produce shit for power for their size and are engineered with technology from the 60's. Who cares if you have to redline the car to get alot of power out of it, its all in the fun. When your driving in the city you dont need to be flying around, so you dont need to have a huge ammount of acceleration, and im quite sure that the S2K has enough get up and go in the low RPMS to suit anyone who is just looking to drive around town.

I will never understand the love for low displacement engines that are "efficient". Being the torque junkie that I am if I was to design a naturally aspirated engine my goal would be the most torque out of the smallest package possible with the lightest materials. If I can fit more liters in a given volume than the competition and keep the weight similar then as far as I am concerned, I win. "There is no replacement for displacement."

......"There is no replacement for displacement."
Sure there is...it's called proper engineering. My jeep 4L engine puts out about 150BHP, a german or Jap engine 2/3 the size can put out twice that number with much more torque.

.."my goal would be the most torque out of the smallest package possible with the lightest materials."...
This in my mind is contradictory. If you want toque, you need the weight to generate the inertia. Light weight parts give you fast revs, but not really as much torque to spin the flywheel. Now, if you can generate the same speed on a big fat piston, thats going to have far more inertia and provide you the low end torque you seem to want.
I don't really see why this is more desirable then just revving the motor higher though. If I generate my peak power at 6k rpms then who cares? I will just keep it in the powerband. Granted, this is not as effective from a stop to full speed, but then again, I don't try to beat my last not to 60 time at each green light ;)

"Sure there is...it's called proper engineering."

I'd like to know what kind of 'engineering' you guys keep referring to. All engines use cranks, pistons, valves, etc. as far as I know... and since we are all on the same planet we are all confined to the same periodic table which has iron, aluminum, and titanium. What is this exotic out of this world engineering you speak of? Overhead cam, fuel injection, and variable valve timing are not exotic and 'engineering' and everyone has it these days. Stop watching the buzzword laden TV commercials.

There is no replacement for displacement, period, end of story. Even if you have boost, twice the displacement is going to deliver twice the power under the same boost, end of discussion.

If you have displacement you don't need to rev twice as high to move the same volume of air and fuel, so you don't need a high RPM fast revving engine. More fun? Pushing the pedal to the floor and waiting 5 minutes for the tach to climb through any single gear before you can shift is agonizing, not fun. Cruising around town at 1100 RPM in 6th gear saving gas and still being able to pass anyone on the road without down shifting while their engine is screaming in vain to 9,000 and they feel like they are going in reverse, now that is my idea of fun!

Torque production has nothing to do with how heavy the pistons or flywheel are; you know jack squat about engine physics and it's painfully obvious, so please just stop before my head asplodes.

Revving high to make power is no replacement for displacement either.

Honda 2.0L I4 or a Ferrari 4.0L V12 both revving to 10,000RPM, which is going to make more power? Thought so.

Ok, this is laughable. some genuis just compared a 2.0 l4 honda engine to a Ferrari, wow that makes alot of sence 100k priced car with 12 cylinders vs a 23k car with 4 cylinders. HAHA

Why pay 30k for a mugen blah, when you can buy a 15- 20k Used RSX and take it to a performance shop drop 6k and get 300 hps, plus lots of kool looking gauges etc.

Signed: my2cents

Why does hp/L mean anything to anyone? I would agree that it is useful for tracking the improvements in engine efficiency over previous generations but that isn't the whole picture. If I could make an engine that produced 1000hp/L but weighed 40 tons and filled a aircraft hangar would it be good? What if you could achieve 150hp/L with a honda four cylinder but the block had to be made out of lead? Would it be good? By the reasoning of the import crowd, it would be amazing. hp/L is not a useful judge of how good an engine is without more information. period. Also, those of you that think that pushrod architecture is out of date, both pushrod and OHC techs have advantages.

Because I can pick up a LS1 Camaro for $13-15,000, drop a cam kit in it for $1000, do some ECU tuning for another $800, have 400+ hp at the wheels (depending on how hot a cam) and still kick your RSX's ass up and down the strip. For 6K I can drop a turbo or supercharger kit on it and have 450 rwhp on a stock engine with no gas mileage hit given proper ECU tuning. I've seen a 500 rwhp supercharged Corvette that gets 35 mpg on the highway.

Cool looking gauges don't make you go fast.

And last I checked that 1960s technology is still kicking your ass. 400 hp and 30 mpg is nothing to scoff at in the new Vettes. My dads 330 hp 02 Trans Am WS6 Collector's Edition gets 27 mpg which is only 2 mpg worse than a 290 hp Acura V6. And that Acura is/was far more expensive.

And don't think that increasing the horsepower of your 4 banger with turbos doesn't decrease your mileage. I talked to a guy with a 10 second Civic. Told me he couldn't drive from Orlando to Tampa on a tank of gas because with that much power out of a 4 banger, gas mileage goes into the toilet.

If you want to go fast, buy a motorcycle. 200HP/L for the 600s, 10s 1/4 mile bikes for $10,000. Not the most practical thing, but if you really want speed, that's your fix. Pretty good gas mileage too.

If you want massive torque from a standing stop, you don't want more displacement, you want an electric motor. I bet they'll soon start making performance hybrids that will impress alot of people.

I think all of you are missing the point of this car. Somehow this discussion has turned into an import/American displacement war?? Why?

Do you think that Honda, even in the slightest way, thinks they'll sell this Mugen civic to the enthusiast or tuner crowd? I think not.
Honda isn't trying to sell this to the Corvette/Camaro/Mustang guys, so please get off the displacement soapbox...

The price premium and minor upgrades are used to sell this to either the general masses that know nothing about cars other than the Honda name, 20 year old girls/guys that want mom/dad to buy them a cool car, or older people who kinda fit in the first category.

I don't think any of you reading this fit into any of those categories that Honda is trying to sell to.

.."And since we are all on the same planet we are all confined to the same periodic table which has iron, aluminum, and titanium. What is this exotic out of this world engineering you speak of? Overhead cam, fuel injection, and variable valve timing are not exotic and 'engineering' and everyone has it these days...."

Really?
One thing that makes a HUGE difference is precision. And no, not all engines have valves actually. Who is talking about exotic materials anyhow? No one. None of this is a matter of opinion. Japanese and German engines ARE more efficient then their American counterparts. Efficiency includes BHP/L. That is a fact.
I am not saying that you cant pick up a LS1 Camaro for $13-15,000, drop a cam kit in it for $1000 spend another 2k and make a lot more power.
This is not the point.
Heck a Mitsu Evo X take a little bitty 2l motor and gets 320bhp and 325 pound-feet of torque out of it! No matter how you slice it, thats amazing. You think you can get that out of a small American motor? No chance.
Just imagine if your Camaro engine was built from the factory with the same level of detail and engineering..you would have enough power to rotate the earth! But... it's not and the reason its not is to save money. Full stop.
By the way..I have no doubt that a super high HP camaro will beat TONs of car out there on the straight track, but god help you if you come across the natural enemy of the american car...a corner ;)

This civic is overpriced in my opinion.

But hp/L does mean good horsepower from less weight. My friend has a GSXR600 with a 600cc engine that produces nearly 200hp/L. I'm sure if some engineer decided to stick a 2.0L cruiser engine in there to produce the same horsepower it would be a pig in the corners and slower in a straight line because of the extra weight. This friend also had a V6 Mustang that ultimately went to his sister when he bought an RSX Type S. The Acura produces the same amount of hp with much less weight, albeit with less torque, so it can handle better. And although the torque isn't close to that of the V6, Honda's VTEC has a good low rpm profile in this engine, so at lower rpms it has torque like a normal 2.0L engine, instead of being really peaky like the S2000 engine. But this doesn't mean it has plenty of torque, so there is room for improvement.

Lotus solved their midrange torque problem by putting a low pressure supercharger on their 1.8L Toyota engine in the Exige S. I think Honda should try to work on adding a low boost turbocharger to their K engines in order to add a few horses, but more importantly, really beef up the low to midrange. They have already put a turbocharger in the RDX, so it would make sense to expand their turbocharger development. High boost turbos will kill gas mileage, but lower pressure turbochargers add useful torque without considerably affecting gas mileage.

By the way, GM's LS engines are actually pretty advanced for pushroad engines. And the massive amount of torque makes them more suitable for everyday driving. I prefer overhead cam engines in modern cars, but there's no substitute for classic pushroad muscle.

Jon is basically right...
People will buy this Honda for the same reason people buy other Hondas...because it's a Honda.
I know that the Japanese vs American quality argument is getting less realistic in terms of quantifiable data, but people still have the impression that if they buy American it will break down, if they get a Honda, it will run forever.
Yes of course there is anecdotal evidence to support both side of this just as there always has been. We are forced to admit however, when a trend run for so long, there must be some truth it it.
I say that having a jeep as a daily driver. POS, but I love it ;)
My wife however, Lexus. ;)

Patrick:

"Heck a Mitsu Evo X take a little bitty 2l motor and gets 320bhp and 325 pound-feet of torque out of it!"

I'd like to see it do that on 87 octane without detonating itself to pieces... thats what I thought.

High power small displacement engines rely on high boost and high octane fuel. The LS1 will do it with muddy 87 octane and and zero boost and without waiting all day for the tach needle to move.

Pump gas in Japan is 100 octane, remember that. I would wager that engines in America are built to favor displacement over boost to accommodate fuel octane limitations and 'green' fuel additives here in the US thanks to the Prius driving tofu eating seaweed wearing Al Gore worshiping fools. If we tried to make 100 octane pump gas the norm here, I guarantee you the above crowd would protest that 'race gas' at the pump is irresponsible use of resources, and blah blah blah.

Do you have any idea what a LS1 would put out if it was designed to REQUIRE premium and minimum 93 octane? Hint: even more than 400 HP.

Keep that in mind when comparing 'engineering' and 'efficiency' of engines. Not all fuels and environmental regulations are created equally.

Btw, regarding precision and tolerance, the engine in my '03 Cobra is hand built and the tolerance and precision is so tight that I have to use 5w-20 oil and the oil is clear as water still between changes with almost 40,000 miles on it. If I keep my foot out of it and stay below 2000 RPM cruising I get 25 mpg (measured by the trip meter and fill up amount) but when I get on it I have 700 ft-lbs pinning me in the seat at 2,000 RPM courtesy of the twin screw.

The bane of DOHC engines is low port velocity and lack of air stream momentum at low RPMs which results in poor cylinder filling and even intake charge escaping back out the intake valves (due to lack of momentum in the other direction) during intake valve overlap at the beginning of the compression stroke. With forced induction you not only solve that problem (port velocity doesn't matter when the intake is pressurized and forced in) but also takes full advantage of the 4V breathing when the boost gauge is pegged up in the higher RPMs.

Forced induction (esp belt driven superchargers) + 4V DOHC = win-win. But if for N/A power, 2V wins for low end torque, and it doesn't really matter if it's OHC or OHV.

I can corner just fine thank you, my 03 Cobra has IRS and coil overs and is the reason I won't be trading down to a Shelby GT500 any time soon *grumble*. '03 Cobras place with BMWs and Corvettes on your trumpeted road courses despite weighing 3,700 lbs and being based on a 30 yr old chassis design in a car that can be bought for $24,000. Read "Iron Fist, Lead Foot" to learn about this car and a little piece of American engineering and ingenuity.

Don't forget to check out anything with the SRT-4 badge on it. 300+ HP from a 4 cyl turbo just like the Evo, Sti, etc. (The cars themselves however are way better than a Neon though at 3 times the price, but the engines are similar size and performance with similar after market potential, ie: 500 HP SRT-4s on stock engines)

It is basically environmental regulations, pollution control , fuel quality, fuel restrictions, mass marketing, and public demand, that dictate how American engines must perform, not lack of engineering prowess or precision.

This is way over priced for the performance it gives. Sure it's a Honda and will run forever, but with a $30K price tag it isn't in the economy compact market anymore. 220 HP isn't enough to compete int he $30k Segment no matter what engine its coming out of.

I love Honda's engine and currently have a 2000 Integra GSR, but would NEVER pay $30K for a Civic unless they strapped the 2.3 Turbo from the RDX in it.

Umm. All of you DO realize that Honda is only going to sell 1,000 of thes Mugen Civics in the U.S. right? And I'd be willing to bet that all of them already have deposits made and are spoken for. This isn't a mass production car - so there is no "competing" in the 30K segment....

To the guy who questioned the basic rule "no replacement for displacement". Why does he think virtually all racing categories in the world put limit on displacement?

What would you think Subaru would do if they allowed an extra liter in the WRC? Ignore it, because we can do it more efficiently?

I doubt it. There is no reason to shy away from big engines only because they are big.

For the ppl in here bashing the new Civic si's.... Have you ever even driven one? My guess would be probably not based on your moronic statements about it. Yes, it doesn't have high tq. It doesn't have to, it has one of the best transmissions on the planet. The tech doesn't take forever to reach 8000rpm, it fly's to it. The si shifts better than any car most of you have every driven making it a joy to shift. My point? Don't judge something based on #'s alone. It's called balance! Realiability, Performance, FUN to drive, etc.. Not just #'s at the track, it this was the case of course there are faster cars. The new si's are plenty fast enough for the avg person looking for a decent ride for not too much $$$

Mamatay kayo sa inggit... im sorry to say but Mustang beater yan.. lmao

this car has a 4 banger in it. a little engine like that will never produce a tremendous amount of torque. They make up for it with the high reving and putting it in a little ass car.

P.S.
there is no replacement for displacement :)

Have any of you PPL even driven the civic??
who care about all the stats and logistics
about the damn car if you like it you like it if you dont
you dont!! I own the SI and i love the car!!!! Its fun to drive
looks good and drives and handles good!
oh and i got it for 21K even out the door and ran it on the track and
pulled a 14.89 wit the stock engine!! so why are you domestic lovers on this page anyway keep to your american made cars that die at 50K mile kay!!!

I have test driven an Si because I will be getting the '09 model really soon and lucky me, I was with a car salesman who was just a bit older than me and actually encouraged me to take it to it's full potential. We went on neighbouring roads and drove the car as if it were on a track. Quite fun.. and I'd have to say that the suspension on the car is surprisingly good - also in comparison to my friends '06 mustang!

I don't really know how you can be bashing the interior of the Si. It is very attractive with its red stitching etc...

And the point that most (if not all) of you are missing is that there are only 1000 of these cars made. It's a collectible, not a Japanese super car.